How is the pandemic transforming the way we move?

 

Mary Rowe [00:00:15] Hi everybody. It’s Mary Rowe from the Canadian Urban Institute. Thanks for joining us for our second CityTalk this week. Very, very pleased to have four fabulous contributors to talk to us about what they’ve been seeing and experiencing across the country. As many of you know, the Canadian Urban Institute is headquartered in Toronto, but we now have regional leads across the country and we have many, many, many partners who’ve stepped up to support the work of creating connective tissue and creative collective problem solving for what challenges municipalities and people that live in cities are going through, through COVID. And how do we come through this and emerge and live with it in a creative and in a way that improves our cities and makes them better. The head office of CUI is located in Toronto, which is the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Annishnabec, the Chippewa, the Haudenasaunee and the Wendat peoples. And it’s home now to many diverse First Nations from the Inuit and Metis communities as well across Turtle Island. Toronto is also covered by Treaty 13, which was signed with the Mississaugas of the Credit and the Williams Treaties, which were signed with multiple Annishnabec nations. And we have tried to conduct these CityTalks for the last 15 or 16 weeks, trying to be as cognizant as we can of the histories of and legacies of exclusion that contemporary urbanism over a century or two have continued to exclude people and not actually build the kind of connective tissue that CUI is championing across the country that we need to build in cities itself. And we’re having to come to terms with that. We’re having to reckon with that. And we appreciate people continuing to do their own personal struggles with this and what how we’re actually going to undo anti-Black racism and different forms of exclusion. And it’s a it’s a journey and a learning journey. And we appreciate people being so frank and honest and candid about what has to change. I was on call earlier this morning with a deputy minister in the federal government who was articulating that every fissure, every dysfunction, that every crack, I think was the language that she used, every crack in the system that existed before COVID has just been now greatly exacerbated. And where else we see this more vividly, but in the topic we’re on today, which is how do we move. So we appreciate these four coming on to express their own perspectives about what they’ve actually been seeing, what tangibly has been challenging, and then how do they and how do we collectively imagine what the transition is going to look like and what the future might look like and how we actually build cities. So joining us today are Stephanie Cadieux, who is an MLA for Surrey South outside British Columbia. You may not know when MLA is, but she sits in the provincial legislature. She is a policymaker and she’s from the booming metropolis of Surrey, which she just reminded me is the second largest municipality in British Columbia. Eddie Robar is here. He’s a Branch Manager of Edmonton Transit Service and he is actually coming to us live from the newest transit station or a branch, whatever you can call it, Eddie. He’ll tell us what it is that they are not. It’s not the office, not the yard. Whatever it is, you’re at a transit..

 

Eddie Robar [00:03:16] Garage.

 

Mary Rowe [00:03:17] What are you calling it? Garage.

 

Eddie Robar [00:03:19] Transit Garage.

 

Mary Rowe [00:03:20] You’re in a transit garage in a mysterious location in suburban Edmonton. Great to have you there. And Amina Yasin. Who’s a Planning Commissioner at the City of Toronto. Sorry. Excuse me. Horrible mistake to make from central Can. City of Vancouver. The Vancouver City Planning Commission. And she’s coming to us from New Westminster. And Armi de Francia who’s the ACT transportation coordinator at the town of Ajax, founder of Transporation Equity Toronto, and coming in from booming central GTA, Pickering. We we don’t go in great length on bio’s here on these things. People at the chat folks will post it for you can look up. What we always find happens is people frantically now start looking you up and and we always try to make clear to people that the CityTalk. The conversation begins here. It never ends. It’s ongoing. So continue that conversation, at #CityTalk. And we’ll post a video from this. Please contribute to the chat, put questions up, comments up, and we publish the chat. Just keep that in mind so people will see it for a long time. And we appreciate candor and civility and respect. But also we want to get at the real challenges, the real issues so panelists don’t hold back. Tell us what you’re really thinking and let’s start by going west and talk. Let’s go to you, Stephanie. And unmute yourself please. And let’s just hear what’s your perspective in terms of what you’ve been watching, in terms of how we move and then what do you think’s ahead?

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:04:42] Sure. Well, thanks for having me. And hi everyone that’s joining us. I’m coming here from the traditional Coast Salish territories here in Surrey, right close to the border. So, actually, this last little while has been a real challenge for everyone for sure. And certainly for me, I’m a person with a disability. So I’ve taken extra precautions during this process. But certainly observing and I would say listening and hearing from people all over the Lower Mainland and British Columbia about issues around transportation and how we move through this, and what does it mean going forward? What are the what are the things that are going to last? What are the things that are going we’re going to have to consider on an ongoing basis? Whether that means cross-border travel and those issues or whether we’re talking about changes that we’re making in terms of transit ridership, in terms of cars and how we and and for people with disabilities specifically. Obviously, that’s my sort of personal area of interest. And certainly there are there are significant challenges with with a lot of the changes that we’re seeing for people with disabilities and there’s implications to how they are able to live their life in our communities.

 

Mary Rowe [00:06:06] So just before we leave you, what what actually happened to the transit system during COVID in in Surrey? Can you tell us what measures they took?

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:06:13] Well, within the lower main, I’ll go Lower Mainland and provincially, transit ridership just completely dropped off, of course, which is hugely problematic for for transit, which meant they had to they had to reduce some of their service. Certainly for our paratransit system, it was a challenge because their inability to social distance when people are interacting and assisting others. And and the challenge, of course, there being so many of the riders had compromised immune systems to begin with. So there are some real concerns there. And and but we certainly saw our transit system do what they could to adapt, to to drop fares, how people enter from from the rear entrance of the bus, limited capacity and so on. So I certainly think what we saw was an attempt by everyone to to adjust as quickly as possible. But I think people are having to really rethink how we’re going to do this going forward if this is not a this is this is a long term circumstance that we’re living in.

 

Mary Rowe [00:07:24] And you have a physical disability so you’re actually so your entry and exit into the vehicles is would be compromised. I don’t know the extent to which paratransit services and special accommodation for people that have mobility challenges to get onto cars. Have they been able to maintain that in the system out in your jurisdiction, or no?

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:07:43] My understanding is that they have provided individuals who are fairly independent and certainly the paratransit system did continue operating with for for emergency type work. But I’m not sure how effective that was. And frankly, I’m not sure how safe people felt. And I think that’s the bigger question was did individuals who have the disabilities and require modified transit options did if they feel confident and safe going out or not? And I don’t I don’t think for the most part people did. I think there was a great deal of anxiety. And I think that persists today.

 

Mary Rowe [00:08:23] I see Gil Penalosa, one of our regular city talkers, is on today in the chat. And Gil, it would be great if you could put into the chat if you know of any data talking internationally about whether or not the virus is being spread. Are there. Is there evidence of community spread of the virus on transit systems around the world? Because my understanding is there is some studies suggesting out of Europe that it isn’t being transmitted that way, which speaks to Stephanie’s concern about how are we going to build public support back into feeling safe to take transit. Let’s go to Amina now, if we could, and just talk to us, Amina, about your perspective as a transit advocate and all the kinds of challenges that we’ve been seeing around essential workers and the kinds of people that have actually continued to use transit and the rest of the infrastructure. So thanks Stephanie. We’ll come back to you. Amine, can you fill us in on your perspective?

 

Amina Yasin [00:09:11] So I’m also coming from the land of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish and Semiahmoo. I have no issues that you’re referring to me as a Torontonian, as I am a Torontonian as well. I’m very much a multi citizen in that way. Second, during the course of this conversation and in light of the street protests, I hope to shed a light on the black liberation movement that we’ve seen take to the streets and seriously engage with this long overdue conversation around racism and abelism that has led to the development of the deeply inequitable cities that we black, Indigenous, disabled, racialized and other vulnerable groups of people are forced to navigate every single day of our lives before COVID and during COVID. This inequity exists within the built environment, transportation, health, food insecurity and in the ways that public safety has been framed. And who gets to move around cities free of state level harassment while also considering who has been forced to move during COVID-19, including here in Vancouver and in Toronto and across Canada. We’re at the point today where this is an urgency to highlight the intersectional nature of street-based safety. Underscoring the intersections between social issues, street infrastructure, design and policing. But before I dig deeper, I’d like to take a moment to sort of ask everybody participating to truly, truly consider how many of you have actually had a close call with police or felt unsafe while in public space, including on transit, due to over-surveillance and over-policing. Really, really think about that. I have to admit that I have in my role and as a citizen and lover of cities. And for those who experienced this panic while out in public space, this discomfort and feeling of over-surveillance and lack of safety stems from a series of policies and regulations, including safer streets bylaws, COVID-19 physical distancing regulations, overcrowded and unreliable public transportation in the neighborhoods most affected by COVID-19, inequitable concept such as open and slow street programs that are taking advantage of COVID-19 to perpetuate privilege for a valued segment of many city’s populations. Ticketing and fare evasion, as we saw prior to COVID, and all of which are a direct result of racism, abelism and state violence. And for those who aren’t familiar with this, with the struggle existing in public space, I invite all of us living in cities and in an urbanism fields, especially those who espouse cities for all, and open streets for people of all ages, abilities and backgrounds to truly consider why black people and disabled people are harassed and dying in public spaces while walking, while jogging, while riding their bicycles, while getting on a bus, and even while driving. Moving forward, I very much, as I did in my article, ask planners and elected officials and city lovers to seriously contemplate what they can do to answer these calls for justice and redress and equity.

 

Mary Rowe [00:12:15] Thanks Amina. It’s interesting, your your transit for you and transfusion for you is a is a public space. You’re making that point right. So obviously privatization of transit is a concern, I’m assuming, as it may be, that in the constraints we’re going to be there now, we’re going to see more private transit because the public transit systems are going broke. And as you suggest, the level of surveillance and lack of public safety is experienced by people of color disproportionately. And it as it is in a park or a street or on a street car or in a subway. Right.

 

Amina Yasin [00:12:49] Absolutely. Spatial anti-Blackness is a real reality, as I speak in my Tyee article, and also for disabled people because the vast majority of those who who do are assaulted in public spaces by police are also disproportionately disabled. And yeah, the privatization of a public essential service is absolutely a threat, I think, to to to our democracy and to our systems. But what a greater threat is the fact that, you know, we continue to to prioritize and not fund transit to begin with. And and, you know, I hope to get into that discussion further. But we but we fund what we value, really, and then and then we police that in which we can’t fund.

 

Mary Rowe [00:13:33] Right. Right. And we’re being asked questions like that at CUI about if we want to continue to make the case that the cities drive the economies of the country and that the dependency of a city on its public transit system is fundamental, therefore, there needs to be investment in the transit. Armi, let’s talk to you. You are actually you are actually in the Greater Toronto Area. My mistake, Amina. You’re in Pickering. And just talk to us about your particular perspective and what you’ve been observing, and I’m sure you’re going to riff on what the other two have said. And they were coming home with you, Eddie. So let’s go to you, Armi, first. You have to unmute yourself there and we’re keen to hear what you have to say.

 

Armi de Francia [00:14:09] Thank you. So I’m a little nervous, but excited to be part of this discussion with people across the country. I am speaking from the land, from land that is covered by the Williams Treaty. And also, I represent a town that has one of the highest black populations in Canada. So the main challenge that I’m seeing overall is that there is a need for more access to affordable options for transportation. We’re seeing limitations with transit, with driving driving can be quite expensive, transit with physical distancing limitations and even with biking, as I don’t know how it is across the country, but in the GTA, there is a limited supply of bikes and bikes are being sold out. So it’s very difficult for a lot of people to access a bike who previously didn’t have so. At the same time, it’s also important that as we think about post pandemic, that we work towards a future where we focus on providing affordable options that are also safe for people to use without the fear of being harassed, without the fear of facing negative tensions with enforcement, or anything like that. So that’s important moving forward. The town I think that it’s in terms of what’s working, it’s more important to hear what residents have to say about that. So instead of that, I’m going to focus more on what could be a potential opportunity. And our active transportation network is a pretty good foundation. We are receiving concerns from residents about the need to improve it to make it more continuous, but at least is showing that there is a concern and there is a desire for more for more transportation options beyond just transit and driving. So that’s what we’re seeing here so far. And we also have we also have we also had the recent creation of, well Council recently approved a motion to create an anti-Black racism Congress. So we’ll be exploring ways to to engage with black communities in order to do that.

 

Mary Rowe [00:16:15] Thank you. I’m interested your comment about bikes. You know, we’ve had this conversation frequently on this on CityTalk about how the a certain privileged constituency and urbanism have been trying to push for streets to be closed and more bike travel. And that’s perceived to accommodate a very slim portion of the urban population. So people that don’t have access to bikes or people who have three kids and have to get them somewhere and they are not hauling them on a bike. I have noticed that some of the biggest lineups now, at least in Toronto, are for bike shops. Like long lineups for people to get their bikes repaired and various things. And the one I was looking at is one of those go in and fix your own bike places. And I couldn’t get over it. There was a long line up for it. So this question of equitable distribution of mobility options I guess this is the big challenge. How do we what’s the relationship between mass transit and then these individualized more not standardized approaches to helping people move? I guess. Eddie, you’re in the belly of the beast and you run you run a system. So talk to us about the challenges that you’re facing there. And I know that your system and you maybe you should tell people what is the current level of functioning of the Edmonton system and what are you looking at going forward with all the expenses that you’ve had to incur with the farebox diminishing?

 

Eddie Robar [00:17:31] We’re we’re sitting on Treaty 6 land here in Edmonton and I’m coming to you from the Kathleen Andrews Transit Facility, which is our newest transit garage named after our first woman transit driver. So pretty excited about that. Certainly a lot going on in Edmonton and work. All the conversation here is fantastic because certainly it’s where transit companies and transit properties need to start focusing effort on that that equitable approach and ensuring that we have a a program that really supports mobility in the cities that we’re in. And we have a large Indigenous population as well here. And certainly being attentive to that and understanding the impacts that is for a transit system. Looking at what happened and what’s been happening in Edmonton, very similar to most transit systems across the country, a huge decrease in ridership for us. We went down to about 25 percent of what we normally had for ridership. And now we’re kind of scooting back up to that 50 percent range rate now, but certainly presents a lot of challenges being a transit person myself. You know, our goal is trying to get as many people on transit as you can. And this is the first in my career where I had to focus on on limiting the amount of people on a vehicle and trying to ensure that we had enough service out there to keep distance possible on our on our our service itself. We’re running at about 50 percent of our service level right now, still on our Saturday enhanced schedule. So a little beefed up Saturday schedule for us. That seems to be holding for what we have for ridership right now. But we’re looking to resumption of service in August, the end of August. So back up to normal services. And certainly that focus on on some of the conversation around here, around, you know, what fare evasion looks like and how we handle that and our fare policies is something that we’re discussing from that GBA plus lens and really trying to ensure that we’re not further pushing people into areas that they don’t need to be. And I think that, you know, some of the work that we’ve been doing before COVID was really focused on on trying to get an affordable system, an affordable program in place. We’ve done things like our ride transit program, which I still contend is probably the single best thing we’ve ever implemented in my transit career. And I’ve been doing this for about 18 years now. But certainly giving people access to mobility in the city. This program provides passes to people at a deeply discounted rate, and it’s over twenty two thousand people a month using it. And it really has impact on people having to choose between groceries or, you know, going to work versus their rent. And I think that, you know, those programs and the focus of Edmonton transit, not only is it about providing the right service out there, but it really is about giving people access to mobility in the city and how we grow that in the future. So some of our plans got a little bit paused with the with the outbreak. And certainly that has presented lots of challenges for us. But it certainly hasn’t stopped our progression in trying to maintain that that progress that we’ve already had. And certainly some of the benefits that come from COVID-19 is it highlighted a lot of the social inequities and challenges that are in our community and really put it in the forefront for people when you have no place to go and you see it. And I think that that, you know, when when all the stores are closed and you see that that social inequity like in front of your face, it really makes you pay attention and it really looks at an ability for us to take that, run with it and look at how we can improve that world for us in social housing. And how important that becomes in the future.

 

Mary Rowe [00:21:34] Thanks. You know, it’s interesting, these conversations that we’re having about urbanism and we had, prior to COVID, articulated for CUI that urbanism is for everyone and the dilemma is that you can you can aspire to that, but it doesn’t necessarily happen. You know, it doesn’t happen unless everyone is engaged in actually creating urban environments. And one of the things we watched across the world is that during COVID because our homelessness services were inadequate, that lots of homeless folks were getting onto subways and streetcars and spending the whole day there because it was a safe place and there was no other place. So there sort of cascading effect, eh, and how are we going to sort of prioritize this? I’m interested in terms of you folks, in your perspective, if we’re if we’re not going to if we’re gonna be spending more time at home, if we’re not going to be going into the car as much for the next foreseeable future, do you think that should affect how we allocate resources for transit systems? Let me just why don’t I start asking Armi that. I mean, do you have a sense of how you would prioritize, how you would spend money? What what part of a system would you rebuild first? You thought about that yet?

 

Armi de Francia [00:22:47] I’m not sure what part of the system that we would rebuild first persay. Although I think it’s still important to consider ways in which we can expand these affordable options for mobility, whether or not people are staying at home. After all, for many, staying at home is a privilege, right, that a lot of people don’t have. So there’s still people, like essential workers, who do need to get around and are still people who need to go to hospitals or to doctor’s appointments or grocery shopping, all those different types of essential trips. I think the next direction that would help is working on policy. So currently, at least on the Ontario context, we have policies and guidelines for walkability, AODA, so accessibility to a certain extent, transit, driving and and bikes as well. But there’s other modes of transportation that are emerging or that have been used in other countries for a while that we just don’t have the guidelines for or that are emerging or not that clear yet. So, for example, e-bikes are there’s been a study in the U.K. in 2019 that found that e-bikes had a positive mental health benefits for seniors. And and currently in Ontario, there is a lot of municipalities who don’t really have regulations on bike e-bikes as yet, or they’re still creating them. And then there’s e-scooters of course and there’s also cargo cycles. So cargo cycles. They are they can be pedal powered or they could be powered by electric motors. But there’s currently. The regulation, at least in Ontario, is that bikes only have two, maybe three wheels. So they don’t really accommodate for cargo cycles, which could have metal wheels and very low carbon mobility options that could carry people that could carry goods at a much lower cost. So just opening, we need political will in order to create guidelines and policies that support these other affordable transportation options that could benefit a wide variety of groups, whether it be people with disabilities or gender nonconforming folks or seniors or other people who have been historically neglected systemically.

 

Mary Rowe [00:25:02] You know the dilemma, though, I can feel it just lurking there, is that if we somehow take our eyes off focusing on invest back in the major system, don’t let our don’t let our our tranit don’t let our subway system collapse, that we may miss the opportunity that you’re just implying, which is maybe we need a whole mix of different things, you know. What do you think, Amina? And then I’m going to come to Stephanie. Have you thought about that? About. Do you like having a mix of system, a mix of things? Or would you rather just get the main spine of the system back back up and running? What’s your instinct?

 

Amina Yasin [00:25:32] I agree immensely with Armi. I do think that we need to look at multiple forums. We need to look at mobility and then look at modality in multiple, multiple forms of that and how those feed into each other. But I think, again, going to the original question. In my article, I asked us to basically recognize our role in perpetuating environmental inequities and spatial anti-Blackness and in it I state that governments and cities fund what they value and as a result, who they value and then police what they refuse to fund. Right. And so just as Armi mentioned today, like during these converging crises, including COVID, we find ourselves in, once again, the poor who are disproportionately racialized and disabled and disabled have absolutely been conscripted by economic force and racism to perform the patriotic duty to risk death for middle and upper class consumers. Those are our essential services. Those are the people using our transit systems mostly. Those are not the people that we’re able to pivot very quickly and piggyback off the work of disabled disabled justice advocates who essentially were advocating for a style of working from home to accommodate their needs. But we’ve pivoted very quickly for a very privileged group of people. And so, again, the racialized and the most marginalized are the ones on public transit. And so we really need to look at that because if their services are declared essential, but then the services that they require to perform their work, which is public transit, is essentially non essential. And it remains non essential because the federal government has essentially preferred to bail out millionaires by granting companies like Loblaws twelve million dollars and other means, which translated to Loblaws purchasing more in energy efficient fridges. When the government could have easily have used those funds, along with other bailout programs issued to the most privileged to support the transportation systems across Canada that have less ridership, but with a constant ridership, which are those racialized groups, which are those marginalized groups, which turn out to be those essential service workers that we step out every single day and clap for at 7:00, but don’t really interrogate what this means. Who are grocery store workers and that leads into a bigger conversation about where our food comes from and what’s happening with migrant workers currently. And so this feeds into so many different intersections in food insecurity and all sorts of measures who, again, can’t work from home and have been conscripted essentially to do this work and rely on transit during a public health crisis that also requires physical distancing. So and there are many organizations across the country, including here in Metro Vancouver, who have been doing this work, who have been advocating day in and day out for affordable and accessible transit, such as the All On Board project through the B.C. Poverty Reduction Group here who, even before COVID, advocated for a sliding scale monthly pass system based on income, free transit for youth and a reprioritization of need when it comes to transit users and sometimes its equity work that people are just, you know, well, you know what I call white urbanist and status quo urbanist who can’t sit in complexity. They just do not know how to sit in complexity until they have really a very difficult time understanding that our streets and our transit system are not neutral. And that’s why we need to completely and constantly reiterate these realities and that a lot of the ways that we’ve been able to pivot have been because of grassroots organizations primarily who are actually oppressed groups of people who are not bicyclists, because bicyclists are also not an oppressed group of people. So while I while a bicycle and I see the importance of it, I am not I am not going to prioritize a discussion on that over a human rights issue that we are seeing.

 

Mary Rowe [00:29:22] Amina, would you would you advocate for transit to be made free?

 

Amina Yasin [00:29:27] I would. I think it comes down to exactly my point of, you know, reprioritization. And I think once we start reprioritizing and really looking at that and developing, you know, equity frame frameworks and tools as a foundation for a transit system, then we can do it because we’ve seen we’ve seen where the federal government has been able to step in like COVID has shown us, COVID has shown us who who is valued right. Again, who are we bailing out? We’ve bailed out the airlines. That’s a form of transportation. So why were we unable to do the same for our public transportation systems?

 

Mary Rowe [00:30:02] Right. I mean, we’ve all, you know, the federal government also managed to get money in the hands of millions of Canadians very quickly through CERB. So I hear you that it all these decisions reflect a set of values and do we have an opportunity to pivot now and actually insist that the investments of the federal and the provincial and municipal governments align around equity and around keeping actually allowing the city to move and generate the wealth that actually pays the taxes for us to actually invest in these things? Stephanie, what are you thinking in terms of what your colleagues are saying here? What do you see that the perspective. I mean, you’re a provincial legislator, and I know that in British Columbia, the provincial government does invest in transit, but there’s also still a dependency on the fare box. And do you have a sense. I mean, I know you’ve sat at those provincial federal tables, as head banging as they are, to try to figure out what the share should be. But what do you think? Do you think going forward we should be investing and getting more federal and provincial dollars into local transit systems?

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:31:01] I think we have to do a fundamental rethink of how we plan things. And from that perspective, what I mean by that is I think we have to flip how we flip and start over, how we how we look at designing how we move. So we have to start with the pedestrian network and then we have to look at the multimodal bikes and e-bikes and what have you and how does that fit in. And then we have to look at the the car and motor network, which is essential, the car, bus, motor network. And I include this because that includes roads. And and although, you know, it’s not just the things that go on the roads, the transit, it’s not just the the the sky train as we have here or other other mass transit options. It’s all of the options. But I think we have to start looking at how we how we look at it. Why why are we doing it and for who? Because we’re not doing it for everybody. Right. And in in my for my perspective, from a disability perspective, disability is always an afterthought on all of these things. And I know that it’s similar for for equity seeking groups, minorities and marginalized people. And COVID has elevated those issues. It has brought them to the forefront because, yes, the transit certainly transit in British Columbia is is subsidized by the provincial government to some degree. But 33 percent of revenues for the Metro Transit is fair box and 17 percent for rural transit is fair box. So it’s still a significant amount of what they need to operate. The provincial government tends to look more at the at investing in the capital infrastructure pieces. The big, you know, multi-billion dollar investments and participating there, as with the federal government. And that’s the division of powers that we see in Canada and that’s a that’s a complex issue in and of itself. But if we look at who are we designing for and why and are we including everybody from the beginning. If we don’t build sidewalks properly, then people can’t get to the to the bus. If we don’t build bike lanes properly, then people with disabilities can’t cross the street safely because certainly the bike lanes, although I am in favor of having the opportunity for people to to use bikes and e-bikes and all these sorts of things can be an incredible barrier for people with disabilities. So if we if we start looking strategically at all of the users and the users most impacted before we look at OK and now what about cars and what about roads and what do we need? Because, you know, it’s all necessary. It’s all essential for the economy. Right? It’s all we have to have a massive highway and road structure and we have to invest in it because we have to move people between cities. We have to move goods. We have to move ambulances and all those sorts of things. But we also need really good mass transit options for people, not for for people who require it because they can’t afford an alternative. And for people because they want to make that choice and use those options. We want people to do that. And so how how are we going to ensure that there’s enough ridership and enough and enough money invested? And how do we make sure that when we do that, that we’re not excluding the groups that need probably need to use it the most? And that includes people with disabilities who often are left out in the in the in the cold in this and afterwards we try to adjust and adapt. And adjusting and adapting is far more expensive and less effective. And it and it leaves people, you know, marginalized. Which isn’t isn’t the plan. So I think we have a massive task ahead of us as a society and it can’t be directed at any one level of government or any one group as as, you know, being the the error maker here. This is how this has evolved over centuries and we need to we need to reevaluate how we do things. We need to take a broader look at it. And and we can’t. We can’t. I don’t think, you know, point and say they should do that or they should do that, because ultimately there’s there’s one taxpayer and that’s every individual ultimately pays into the system and has an should have an opportunity to participate in that in that design and that and ultimately in the use of that system for their benefit. COVID showed us we need the essential to get to work. If they can’t get to work on transit, we don’t have people running grocery stores. We looked at you know, it’s a bigger question about equity in terms of what do we what do we think is essential? Again, I’m able to work from home. I’m in a job that allows that. Well, great. But, you know, the essential worker at the grocery store working at minimum wage can’t do that. And they’re they’re making minimum wage, why so, but we’re we’re not talking about how we manage the cost of food if we want to pay those workers more. So these are such complex issues for governments and for society generally. But I think too often we get we get focused on very partisan, very, very pointed political debates about what’s a priority and what’s not. We should be having a conversation more wholly more holistically about why why we need to do these things as a society.

 

Mary Rowe [00:37:04] Well I can I can feel people cheering to hear a provincial politician talk as boldly as you just did there. Stephanie, thank you. And and you’re just echoing Amina’s point that this is about complexity and on the chat function we’ve had an interesting discourse going on here about whether people are willing to appreciate that this is a complex, interrelated conversation and that we can’t just talk about transportation in a siloed way. It has to be all of these things. It’s all linked together. And how do we start again? And my advice would be that we start with local places and build out. What a what do places need and see if we can start to talk about equitable places and all the things that go into that. And that’s just my personal bias, but Eddie, I’m interested, from your perspective, you’re hearing your colleagues here making a whole lot of comments that are, I think, not only about a transit system. They’re actually about, I guess, this notion of mobility as a service. Right? That it’s more than just. But you’re the core of the system. Right? Like, if your system is broken, no amount of ad-hocary is probably going to get us where we need to go, right?

 

Eddie Robar [00:38:12] Yeah, I think I love what I’m hearing. And Amina made some great points. I think that sliding scale information, you know, we have a sliding scale here in Edmonton, which is is great. And it’s had a huge impact on mobility in the city, certainly to the point where we provide free transit for those under the low income cut off and for seniors.

 

Mary Rowe [00:38:29] Eddie, machanically, how does that work? So you get on the system and how does it know where you fit in the scale?

 

Eddie Robar [00:38:39] So you don’t know the difference between somebody who has a low income pass or a regular rider. So there’s ways to get the pass for all of our ah ah people that are on the program. But when you ride the bus, nobody would know the difference with somebody that would be on low income or not.

 

Mary Rowe [00:38:57] And there’s no stigma transference there?

 

Eddie Robar [00:39:00] No, no stigma transference. So we try to avoid that as much as possible with with the program. But certainly when we talk about essential services and I mean, I pointed it out, you know, there is there is privilege in at the end of the day, when you look at the system that we’ve created in transit, we had to reduce our service by half. And we have people that are essential workers and people that need to go to work. And, you know, that flexibility is diminished on the on the service itself. So, you know, we rely on that funding to be able to provide the service. And certainly having that subsidy and looking to better subsidize transit systems allows us to provide a better service. And I think that that that social inequity is very prevalent in today’s world that we’re in. And it certainly speaks volumes to what we need to work on from a policy perspective for the transit industry. If we’re thinking that our ridership and our mobility through the city will be the same from here on out, we’re kidding ourselves. I think that there’s a lot of change in the way that people are going to move through the city. How we deliver the services have changed. Certainly even in the reductions of service that we have, how we redeploy our services in different ways has been something we’ve been dealing with as well. You know, we’ve reduced our service, but that service impacts, you know, our hospital workers and people that need to get to to jobs and we’ve kind of repurposed our paratransit service to provide an on demand service for essential service workers so that they can use our on demand service that was we kept at the level that we would normally have, even though we’re 80 percent reduced in our service, to provide an on demand service for essential service workers. So there’s a lot of differences in the way that we’re going to approach the next six months, year, two years. And a lot of that is around ensuring that we have the affordability of our transit system, looking at the ways to subsidize the service so that we’re providing the best service for people and the best mobility through the city. And I think that that mobility is changing. So we have to watch and monitor and the predictability of that that ridership. You know, we’re probably going to be at about 60 percent by the end of the year of our ridership. And it’ll probably take us a few years to recover to the point that we were six months ago. But the only and the difference of us reinstituting services from a transit perspective can’t be just a focus on just getting back to where we were. You know, the changes in the environment and the world and are going to force everyone to take that sober second look at the way we provide our service, the way we move through the city. And how do we make sure that we’re attentive to new mobility, new changes, the way that people move to the city and that we’re providing that service in different ways. We’re looking at things like on demand transit, lower ridership neighborhoods, how can we get affordable service options into communities to provide mobility for people? Certainly on the senior side of it and the work we’re doing on the on the affordability for seniors, it’s about giving them the ability to age in place, you know. And giving that mobility through through the city as well. So there’s there’s a lot of change in the way that we do our business, just in how we provide the service, but certainly in the social realm and ensuring that we have an affordable transit system for all and not just the privileged is going to be, this highlights it through and through, and making sure that we have access to that.

 

Mary Rowe [00:42:28] Eddie, I’m going to have to ask you to speak up a little bit. I know it’s because you’re on a panel with all women that you’re talking a little more softly, but you might just have to bellow a little bit. Give us your big bow out of that transit garage, because I’m having a little trouble hearing you. But can I just ask you a question about what about this fear? You’re a transit operator. You’re dependent on the decisions of your council and how they spend their money. Do you anticipate a bit of a bunfight coming in terms of you having, you and your bosses, having to really advocate hard that they need to prioritize putting money into an equitable transit system? You’re going to be up against housing advocates and people saying taxes have to go down and… How are you anticipating making that case as a person in a system?

 

Eddie Robar [00:43:13] Well, I think we’re very fortunate in Edmonton. I think that we have a very supportive citizen services area. Our Mayor is a huge advocate for social equity and I think that our policies and directives have been very focused on taking that full holistic GBA plus lens on ensuring that everything that we’re taking is going to have that modified approach. So I I’m less concerned about that here. I think it’s a whole system perspective. It’s not just about transit. It’s about that urban environment. I think that we have to look at it holistically. Certainly this is a realm and I never thought I would get into that social realm as deeply as I have in the last the last few months and I think that we’re trying to help as best we can to make sure that our social services area has the full support of transit behind it. And our city is very focused on having that holistic effort. We’ve had, through this COVID crisis, we’ve had about twenty six people around a table meeting every single day about how do we handle these social issues and how do we support and not penalize people for, you know, in a system that really was broken. And it shows and highlights that every day that we kind of go through this crisis for sure. And and it’s it’s in ways it’s a good thing because it helps us focus better on on taking that effort and and focusing in on areas where we really can truly have impact as a full system.

 

Mary Rowe [00:44:44] Yeah. I mean, it’s all so inextricably, inextricably linked, as you say. And I love you suggesting that you never thought you’d be in the social business, but now you’re in. So I think welcome to contemporary urbanism. And we’ve all got to be thinking about all that all the time and not everybody can do it, but this is the challenge. Armi, when you look at your your advocacy and where you’re focusing, where your constituency wants you to go, can you see a kind of merging of housing advocacy, transportation advocacy, transit advocacy? Do you think it’s going back to being place oriented? The success of places needs all of this? What are you thinking?

 

Armi de Francia [00:45:20] So my city building work with Transportation Equity Toronto, it’s more about raising awareness on transportation equity through an intersectional lens and absolutely. There’s ways of. Well, we have to look at it holistically. We have to consider food security as well as affordable housing. So affordable housing affects who gets it it’s a strong indicator currently of who gets access to these affordable options, who gets access to these walkable areas, who gets access to these areas that are more likely to meet AODA, sorry, accessibility standards. So it is necessary to look at it holistically. And to be honest, transportation does deal with it it does deal with it makes a huge impact on a lot of those issues anyway.

 

Mary Rowe [00:46:05] I mean, I guess one of the fears people have is, this is maybe an existential fear though, is that somehow people will stop using transit. They’ll stop we will stop building compact communities. We’ll all just get back into living in suburbs. And we will… Oh, OK. Amina, you’re shaking your head. You don’t think that’s going to happen?

 

Amina Yasin [00:46:23] I don’t think it’s gonna happen because we’re not seeing it happening. Again, those who are most vulnerable are still using transit. And if we just, again, we reprioritize our lens and look at who’s always relied on transit and also who’s who’s now, again, forced to be mobile at this time and heavily rely on transit, that then we can really start having a truly complex conversation about maintaining our transportation system through through multimodal considerations, but especially through public transportation for the most needy.

 

Mary Rowe [00:47:00] But when you say they’re forced to be mobile, meaning that their jobs are a distance away from them and they only have transit as the option to get there?

 

Amina Yasin [00:47:08] Yes. That among other things. Yes.

 

Mary Rowe [00:47:11] So do you see the solution? I mean, again, I don’t there’s no simple solution. But do you think that we should have jobs closer to our homes? I guess that’s a question. So do we want to move more to supporting economic development in neighborhoods so that you don’t have to schlep so far to your job? That’s one thing. Or do we want to continue to have employment be distributed across a metropolitan area and so you can choose. Well, to the extent you can, you choose to live in a certain area. And your job may, in fact, be in a different part of the area, as long as there’s a transit option.

 

Amina Yasin [00:47:42] It’s a false choice, again, because we need affordable housing and we need all these other elements that that function intersection, you know, intersectionaly so that conversation tends to happen again with a very privilaged segment of our society. We know that cities, you know, we know that what was once considered the inner city does not look like the inner city. We understand that that subsect of people have been pushed out to the fringes. Just look at the City of Toronto, which is one of the most segregated economically and racially and where I grew up very much. So the City of Toronto does not look like what I understood it and grew up as and so, you know, certain specific groups of people have been moved have been forced out to become suburbanites. I never considered myself as a suburbanite where I grew up. But I, you know, we were we we grew up on the fringes and heavily relied on public transportation and so it’s very important. And so I’m going to pivot to Toronto because I am a Torontonian as well, despite wherever I live in the world, and so overcrowded and unreliable public transportation and low income and racialized neighborhoods. Again, exactly what I’m stating here were an issue before COVID-19 are actually further exacerbated, as we know. Like, let’s just look, for example, at the Jane Corridor, which has been one of the most neglected for years for for for decent, reliable and equitable transit. I took the Jane Corridor when I grew up. Right. And has also seen many low black, low income, black, racialized and disabled riders continue to suffer immensely during COVID-19. One of the ways we’re starting to see that change is through a project led by champions. Right. I really do not agree with this whole championing. We really need this to to be cemented as just the norm. But by a champion named Matthew Davis from the transportation services branch at the City of Toronto, who, through relationship building, listening and reframing of transportation as an equity issue, foundationally is working on instituting a transportation and equity framework tool and a reprioritization of projects led by equity and its foundations to push for dedicated bus lanes in the most underserviced neighborhoods, including the Jane and Finch area, which continues to see high rates of COVID-19 and overcrowding and unreliable transportation that that specific corridor, like since I’ve grown up, you would see people spilling off the side of sidewalks as they waited for unreliable transportation. So as part of the equity framework tool development and based on the Jane and Finch community’s passionate pleas for excluse for exclusive bus lanes yesterday, just yesterday, during the Toronto Transit Commission board meeting, equity as a priority can begin to be standardized. One way to do this is through state of good repair programs or transportation projects such as the Rapid Bus, Bus Lane and Jane and other planning projects can actually piggyback off a state of good repair public works programs that go beyond road maintenance, resurfacing and paving. And actually move determinedly towards using equity as a lens for where these projects are prioritized, as we know that streets and street work is not neutral. So it’s about. It’s really not rocket science. It’s about prioritization.

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:50:34] I want to jump in as well, Mary, because I think what Amina is saying is, is very, very true. It was a sort of a false question in the sense that, yeah, I think everybody sort of gets the concept of living and working close together, walking and all that, if you can. And the idea of building cities that way is is great. It’s it’s it’s it would be ideal. Right. But we don’t live in ideal. And and even if we want to live in ideal, it is likely only to happen for some people. So right now, for example, I have a housing bill that I’ll be reenter reintroducing this week about about codifying into law the fact that you have to build housing that works for everyone. And by that, I’m not talking about housing from an affordability perspective, which is a whole other question. But if we aren’t even making it the law that you have to build housing that works for people who are disabled or aging. Then how is it that a person with a disability can live close to work? They don’t have a choice. They don’t. They don’t have an option as to where to live. They have one place to live. It’s where they currently live. And it’s unlikely they’re going to be able to find somewhere to move to because we aren’t building housing. There’s ten thousand new units of housing in my area. My my my own little riding constituency of Surrey that’s being developed. Not one of those townhomes is visitable. Never mind adaptable or or livable. So how do people with disabilities visit friends? How do they how do they live close to work? So those are things. That’s where we talk about that complexity. The whole thing has to work together. And we have to be realistic about the fact that even when we build the we attempt to build the ideal, unless we are planning for everyone from the beginning, we will leave people out and there will be a need for other things. So I think that’s for me. That’s the big question is, again, why are we leaving these things out? We are we are focusing entirely on. Well, it works for for that person with a university education and one hundred thousand dollar a year salary. But does it work for every person? Does it work for somebody who is retired? Does it work for somebody who who is a minimum wage worker at the grocery store? Because we need those people in our communities too. Right. We need all of these people to make our society work. And and there’s so many pieces that the market has to balance and places where legislators have to step in because the market can’t. And and these are, I think, some of the issues we’re talking about today about where does that transit need to be and how affordable does that transit need? What does affordability in transit mean and for whom? Why is that important? Why is it important that we have bike networks networks? But who do they serve? Because it’s not universal.

 

Mary Rowe [00:53:37] Right. Lots of activity in the chat here. Always great to see so much animated conversation in the chat. And this one has been particularly spirited and I appreciate everyone taking the time to do that. Lots of interest in resources. So if people have, before we, we only get six more minutes. So people on the chat, if you’ve got links for resources, everyone wants to see Matthew Davis’ equity tool and he’s saying I’m working on it. Thanks for the shout out. I mean, he is now frantically typing to try to keep the chat people happy. If anybody has other tools that they’re aware of, equity tools, I see Tamika Butler is on from the US, could you post them in the chat, please? So we’ll then get them up online for people to watch, to read later. These conversations are always so fabulous because they just unearth a whole bunch of new questions and a whole bunch of new things. You know, we’re not going to rebuild our cities overnight, thankfully cause sometimes when you do it too quickly, you do it wrong. And it’s going to be a whole process. So as we go into the next. You’ve got five more minutes here. So I’m going to ask each of you for a minute, as we go into the next hundred days. You know, we published a report called COVID 100 at the hundred days, and it talks about huge challenges in mobility. And we’ve now we’re kind of going to come up to the next hundred days. For each of you, what would your priority be, do you think? What are you gonna advocate for? What do you think is doable in the next hundred days as we end the summer and go into the fall? Let me start with you, Eddie. What’s your priority that you’re going to really be heads down focusing on?

 

Eddie Robar [00:54:59] Well, certainly we’re immediately focused on getting our service back and hiring back operators that we had to lay off. We’ve had a pretty big impact. We’ve had to layoff about 500 of our operators in our our service now. So getting that back to a place where we can give the service that people deserve back is one of those elements for us. Certainly as we start moving beyond that, part of our plans prior to this was really about reevaluating our transit system and redeploying our our resources in a way that makes more sense and that in going with a better integrated network than before. And certainly that means everything from integrating demand services, which is on the radar for us for the probably the largest deployment of demand based services coming to Edmonton in North America. So certainly getting into communities and with an affordable option for people that is truly integrated into the transit system. But even beyond that, the City of Edmonton is really about getting connected regionally with our transit system. So we have about eight, nine different transit systems around the City of Edmonton. And that region is conforming to a regional transit commission and looking to provide one transit system, one fare system, one affordability system, and really look at integrating that across the region and the Edmonton region itself so that we get seamless travel no matter what boundary or border you cross, what municipality you’re in, and ensuring that we have that seamless travel for people whether and really have a tailor made solution for people, what kind of community they’re in and that they all have access to affordable transit service.

 

Mary Rowe [00:56:38] OK. Just a minute over just a bit. I’ve got to get each of you to hold it for a minute. Stephanie a minute from you then Armi and then Amina. Go Steph.

 

Stephanie Cadieux [00:56:46] Sure. Well, I think just noticing the chat and some conversation. For me, one of the things that that I’ve been really concerned about provincially here, and I’m focusing provincially because, of course, that’s where my my head is that on a daily basis. But we are seeing an actual reduction in requirements. Right. So, for example, the the the need for there to be accessible parking places has been removed from our code and left up to municipalities, which means now a hundred and eighty two municipalities have to have to create a new set of regulations for themselves and figure out how to do this right. The reality is, like I say, with all of these things, nothing is not. There’s no magic bullet. There’s no one thing we need and one thing we don’t. What we have to start doing is looking from the beginning at are we including everybody in our planning and including everybody in our planning means that, yes, there’s gonna be a need to have accessible parking places because not everybody is going to use transit or ride a bike. These are these are things we have to consider and we have to get that. We have to get that thinking in at the beginning, not as an afterthought or, well, it’s nice to have. It’s not. It’s absolutely essential from the beginning. And my focus is on trying to trying to get provincial bureaucrats and politicians to understand that that planning has to be cemented in that that desire to serve everyone has to be cemented it at the beginning.

 

Mary Rowe [00:58:16] And we have a moment. We have a moment as we reset. OK. I absolutely agree with people that are suggesting there’s no magic bullet here. And these these panelists would never have suggested they had the magic bullet. OK, you. Let’s hear from you, Armi. And then Amina to end. A minute from you, Armi.

 

Armi de Francia [00:58:33] So at the town of Ajax we’re currently working on promoting existing active transportation routes to let people know their options and to let people know that these are practical ways for getting them to move around town. And also, we’ll also be investing in new ways in which we can better engage residents, particularly black residents. So there’s also opportunities to speak with the Ontario Traffic Council on how we can improve equity and how we could improve our overall transportation system. And I’ll leave it there.

 

Mary Rowe [00:59:01] Thank you. Amina.

 

Amina Yasin [00:59:03] This conversation for me is about mobility, not modality, even though we do need to look at that. I’m going to point to quite a few people read ‘Safe Streets Are Not Safe for Black Lives.’ Dr. Destiny Thomas. Engage with Tamika Butler’s work, who is who’s been discussing vision zero and policing for years now. Review ‘A Tale of Two Truths: Transportation and Nuance in the Time of COVID-19’ by Ariel Ward who discusses complicity. Please take into consideration and dig into Jay Pitter’s ‘Call for Courage.’ I have my article out, ‘Whose Streets? Black Streets.’ Please engage in the work of Stephanie Allen, Hogan’s Alley Society co-founder and board member. Her thesis ‘Fight The Power of Redressing Displacement and Building a City for Black Lives in Vancouver,’ which redresses the Urban Renewal Project of eliminating the only black community in the City of Vancouver through a failed highway project. This year, in June, we occupy and opened the Georgia Viaducts and maintain them for bicyclists and people on foot. But immediately that group of people who were predominantly black organizing were criminalized. And so when some are criminalized for for for opening streets, while others are patted on the back and rewarded, that’s a real conversation that we need to have this patio conversation that we need to have about who it’s affecting and who gets to move freely. So, yeah, mobility is is the focus for me here and I think should be the focus for many.

 

Mary Rowe [01:00:33] Thank you. Well, the conversation continues, as I say, so I just want to thank all of you, all four of you, for putting your heart and soul into this. And there are a lot of a lot of references to materials that were just made. Amina just listed off some. We’ll see if we can collect them and put them up on the check. And if any of our panelists have other suggestions, just give and send them to us and we’ll post them up. And as everyone knows, the chat gets posted online as well. So don’t worry, you won’t lose this these links. I just want to comment that Phenix Wong’s daughter. I think it’s a daughter at 10 months old just entered into the chat. I think it’s the first time we’ve had a 10 month old entry into the chat. Urbanism is for everyone. Just saying. Next week we come back with CityTalk and we’re going to focus in on another theme from our overtime report, which is how we care. And we’re going to have a panel just of young people. And then we’re going talk about older people. Where we know that there’s been a disproportionate incidence of COVID-19 in long-term care facilities across the country and apparently across the world. So obviously not quite not quite there yet in terms of how we actually do aging in place. One of you mentioned that, I think, before and we’ve get tons of challenges ahead of us. So the conversation is only continuing. City building is never over. Thank you very, very much for joining us as we try to reimagine and re re-commit ourselves to building cities that are for everyone and and involve everyone. So thanks, Stephanie, Armi, Eddie and Amina. Really, really a pleasure to have you. And thanks for joining us. And have a good weekend, everyone. If you can get a weekend, I hope you get one.

 

12:01:49 From Abby S: Hello from Tkaronto
12:01:58 From Laurel Davies Snyder: Hello from Stratford, ON
12:02:19 From Canadian Urban Institute: Welcome! Folks, please change your chat settings to “all panelists and attendees” so everyone can see your comments.
12:02:27 From [Comment Removed]
12:02:31 From Lisa Slater to All panelists: Hello from Guelph, ON
12:02:39 From Yuri Artibise to All panelists: Hi Amina!
12:02:43 From Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at https://www.canurb.org/citytalk
12:04:03 From Anika Abdullah: So excited for this discussion! Greetings from St. Catharines
12:04:23 From Canadian Urban Institute: Keep the conversation going #citytalk @canurb
12:04:25 From Matthew Sweet: hi from Mississauga! excited to hear everyone
12:04:30 From Rida Khan: Hello from Kitchener! thanks for this talk
12:05:21 From Caroline Poole, CUI Staff: Today’s panelists are:

Stephanie Cadieux: https://twitter.com/Stephanie4BC

Armi de Francia: https://twitter.com/a_defrancia

Amina Yasin: https://twitter.com/bambinoir

Eddie Robar: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddie-robar-4195a732
12:05:30 From Jonathan Giggs: Jonathan Giggs from Port Credit in Mississauga
12:05:30 From Kulwinder Sarai to All panelists: Hi everyone. Kulwinder from Calgary
12:05:31 From Bernice Paul: Hello from Vancouver! Special hi to Stephanie and Amina over on the west coast.
12:06:08 From Anneke Smit to All panelists: Hello from Windsor and the Windsor Law Centre for Cities. Thank you CUI for hosting this important discussion.
12:06:35 From Canadian Urban Institute: Reminding attendees to please change your chat settings to “all panelists and attendees” so everyone can see your comments. Thanks!
12:07:09 From Anneke Smit: Hello from Windsor and the Windsor Law Centre for Cities. Thank you CUI for hosting this important discussion.
12:07:31 From Gil Penalosa: Thanks to CUI and Mary Rowe for excellent series of webinars over many weeks. Great opp to learn and also ‘meet’ many superb people, as today’s panelists. Keep it going.
12:09:25 From Catalina Parada: Great! in Toronto Wheel-trans (the paratransit branch of ttc) adapted to provide single rides
12:09:59 From Anneke Smit: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-09/japan-and-france-find-public-transit-seems-safe
12:10:11 From Justin Jones: The understanding I have from the WTO is that with Masks on transit it can be quite safe
12:10:17 From Justin Jones: WHO not WTO
12:11:27 From [Comment removed]
12:11:28 From Catalina Parada: true! I think it has a lot to deal with people’s perceptions of safety
12:12:46 From Joe Arruda to All panelists: do you think free transit would help folks who do not have cars and live in areas with unsafe cycling infrastructure ?
12:12:47 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: I have had many experiences getting on one stop after getting on due to feeling very unsafe with my intersecting identities with race and gender.
12:13:08 From David Crenna: Essential to see the evidence from New York City where the initial belief was that the system acted as a superspreader, perhaps because of no precautions taken. More recent scientific data?
12:13:18 From Lin Wong: Amina 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
12:13:20 From [Comment removed]
12:13:36 From Catalina Parada: *clapping emoji* to Amina
12:13:46 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: thanks Amina.
12:14:00 From Daniella Fergusson: Hi [User], maybe we should have free transit instead. Problem solved.
12:14:06 From mary margaret gelinas to All panelists: Thanks Amina.
12:14:07 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: Absolutely privatization of transit is a major concern – not only for BIPOC and those with disabilities
12:14:10 From Justin Jones: With respect, [User], that’s an incredibly privileged point of view. If you think that people that obey the laws have nothing to fear, you’re not listening to the concerns of BIPOC.
12:14:12 From mary margaret gelinas to All panelists: https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/18/Whose-Streets-Black-Streets/ her article
12:14:21 From Yuri Artibise: Amina’s Tye article: https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/06/18/Whose-Streets-Black-Streets/
12:14:38 From Matthew Sweet: public transit = public space. love it
12:14:39 From Safeeya Faruqui: Thank you Amina!
12:16:19 From [Comment removed]
12:17:02 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: can someone please address [User] who has just drop anti-black racism?
12:17:36 From Sabat Ismail to All panelists: @[User] stop centring yourself there are disparities in gentrified downtown& midtown Detroit and the rest of the city
12:17:56 From Canadian Urban Institute to [User] and all panelists: [User], please refrain from making anti-black statements here. they are not welcome. You will be removed if it continues.
12:17:59 From Justin Jones: If that’s your POV, I wonder why you are here.
12:18:17 From Gil Penalosa: There have not been any outbreak in transit. Cities in South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc., are moving at 90-100% capacity; BC at 66%; Ontario at 33%. If people wear mask, it’s very safe. An additional measure, silent transit. It’s irresponsible to have allowed myth of ‘unsafe transit’. Cities are losing hundreds of millions which will be less funds for education, parks, housing, new transit, etc. Urgent need to re-activate transit. transit. Cars? Simple geometry, they do not fit. As complement to transit, we need citywide networks of protected bikeways. In Toronto, all protected bikeways and weekend Open Streets are in wealthier areas; equity issue. Must focus on priority neighbourhoods.
12:18:19 From Sabat Ismail to All panelists: and white flight as a byproduct of anti Black racism is why the city is where it is at
12:18:25 From Canadian Urban Institute to Luna Aixin and all panelists: on it. He’s been told to stop.
12:18:30 From [Comment removed]
12:18:41 From Luna Aixin: thank you moderator
12:19:54 From Lin Wong: [User]: racial issues are absolutely transportation issues. If you can’t see that then I also ask why you’re here
12:19:56 From Matthew Sweet: it’s all connected [User], that’s why.
12:20:07 From Daniella Fergusson: Hi [User], I don’t know why you’re here. If you’re wondering about Chicago, you might want to check out Richard Rothstein’s Color of Law. Here’s a video summarizing it https://vimeo.com/328684375 and here’s a discussion about it https://la.streetsblog.org/2017/09/28/america-walks-walking-toward-justice-series-the-color-of-law-and-residential-segregation/
12:20:10 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: Support for community-led cycling repair programs and DIY centres is high yet these are almost exclusively run by non-profits. Grant programs are non-existent and support to manage spaces with COVID-19 is limited. Investing in community led programs to support increased ridership and access to bikes is critical
12:20:25 From Justin Jones: Read Amina’s article. Read the recent articles by Dr. Destiny Thomas. It’s not the job of the folks here to educate you on the basics. If you’re not willing to listen with empathy and understand that people’s experiences are different than your own, then there’s nothing here for you.
12:20:34 From Leigh Stickle: Thanks Daniella and Justin
12:20:45 From Cibele Donato: I wonder how cities are going to move forward and re access standards for sidewalks width? Daniel Rotsztain did a very interesting experiment in Toronto walking around with a 2m diameter hoop to highlight the issue of maintaining appropriate social distance.
12:20:59 From Michael Roschlau: Question to Eddie – if ridership is at 50% and service levels at 50%, does that mean the level of crowding is the same as it was pre-COVID?
12:22:19 From [Comment removed]
12:22:34 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: Eddie – how are you approaching changes to transit shelters / stop design — now and in the future as we consider public health but also climate change impacts and ridership changes?
12:22:36 From Gil Penalosa: Montreal and Paris building over 200 kilometers of protected bike corridors. Other cities doing additional over 100 kilometers as Bogota, London, Berlin, NYC, Mexico City… Most Canadian cities missing the moment; if not citywide, if no connectivity, they do not work. More than half of trips in Canadian cities are under 5Km, easily done in 15 min on bike. It’s equity if city prioritizes lower income areas
12:22:42 From Justin Jones: Safe Streets are not safe for black lives – Dr. Destiny Thomas https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-08/-safe-streets-are-not-safe-for-black-lives
12:22:52 From David Crenna: Here’s an article on what the NYC transit authorities have done to increase ridership: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/nyregion/mta-subway-riding-health-coronavirus.html.
12:24:22 From Luna Aixin: I would like to point out that [User]’s presence here is creating unsafety with blatant racist remarks.
12:24:33 From Canadian Urban Institute: He has been removed.
12:24:36 From Cheryl Cohen: If public transit had been made free years ago, there would be no issue with smaller usage during Covid19.
12:24:38 From Justin Jones: Thank you
12:24:41 From Laurel Davies Snyder: thank you
12:24:42 From Lin Wong: thank you!!!
12:24:44 From Luna Aixin: thank you.
12:24:45 From Matthew Sweet: thank you
12:24:47 From Clara Kwon to All panelists: thank you.
12:24:49 From Angela Jarvis: Thank you
12:24:51 From Cheryl Cohen: Thank you for removing [User].
12:24:58 From Elizabeth MacLeod: Thank you!
12:25:02 From Shilpa Dogra: Amazing, thank you!
12:25:15 From Jamilla Mohamud to All panelists: there is no such thing as “privilege anti-white statements”. you’re nit engaging with the content infood faith and are doing your best to derail the discourse to centre your racist views. Just go away.
12:25:20 From Jyoti Pathak: Thank you!
12:25:25 From Jamilla Mohamud to All panelists: *not
12:25:47 From Alheli Harvey: y’all that took too long, but thanks
12:25:48 From Lisa Slater: Thank you for calling him out and for removing him. We all have to have the courage to call out racism when it presents itself.
12:25:48 From Steven Farber: Massive e-bike subsidization program, geared to income, would help provide tangible options
12:26:01 From jay pitter to All panelists: Hello Baby Sis xo
12:26:15 From Jamilla Mohamud to All panelists: *in good faith
12:26:24 From Justin Jones: Not only e-bikes, but adaptive cycling as well. Adaptive bikes can be massively expensive!
12:26:28 From Abby S: Thank you for removing him.
12:27:11 From jay pitter to All panelists: Absolutely Amina!!!!!
12:27:46 From Matthew Davis: A quick win would be to actually remove the barriers in place that block people from even using bike share.
12:27:58 From Matthew Davis: No reason why it takes a credit card to access a bike
12:28:01 From Anika Abdullah: Well said, Amina!
12:28:37 From Abby S: Yes Matthew…credit card is the first barrier. Also would like to see where the bike stations are located.
12:28:42 From Justin Jones: There’s a great model for a barrier-free (no CC required) program for Bike Share in Hamilton, Ontario.
12:28:43 From Justin Jones: https://www.everyonerides.org/
12:28:58 From Ryan Hanna to All panelists: Something I’ve never understood is why most bike share programs cost $3 for a 30 minute ride, versus the same amount for around 2 hours access on transit vehicles
12:29:01 From jay pitter: Class is in session. Yes Amina!!! Go baby sis.xo
12:29:02 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: AMEN – Federal government role in investing in public transit is fundamental. They are missing from the conversation and the investment table
12:29:23 From Abby S: Are bikes a significant contributor to accessible transportation?
12:29:34 From Abby S: I mean bike-share programs.
12:29:42 From Mike Prescott: From a PWD perspective, I think we need a strategic, multi-modal approach which means more research because none currently exists.
12:30:05 From jay pitter: Yes, it is important to embrace complexity.
12:30:26 From Leigh Stickle: No decision is neutral. Such an important point, thanks Amina
12:30:55 From Cheryl Cohen: Yes, free transit!
12:31:05 From Elizabeth MacLeod: Yes!
12:31:16 From Justin Jones: If we truly view mobility as a human right, how can we make a conscious choice not to make transit free?
12:31:16 From Clara Kwon: Amina, yes. 💯 inability to hold and perceive complexity is a major deficit. more diverse voices need to be at the decision-making table.
12:31:31 From jay pitter to All panelists: Yes Amina — schoolin’
12:31:48 From Lisa Slater: Yes, free public transit will help everyone as well as the environment!
12:31:54 From Abby S: Do any transportation systems charge less for the further you are forth core? In other words, make commuting from high priority areas free, but downtown financial systems cost more…maybe too complex.
12:32:05 From Abby S: From the core (should read)
12:32:11 From David Crenna: Yes, essential to have the data on actual bike use by the most vulnerable groups for routine activities, like taking their children to day care, and in winter…
12:33:43 From Michael Roschlau: Providing fares that are geared to income is much better than free transit. Making things free debases their perceived value. Furthermore, it would discourage walking and cycling, overcrowd the system and place a huge burden on the tax base when many riders can afford to pay.
12:34:02 From Daniella Fergusson: Hey Abbt, in Metro Vancouver the opposite was true for a long time because of how the fare zones work. But the fare system is now based more on distance traveled. Some places make the core free. Like Portland’s MAX (streetcar) is free in the core. Some places do that with buses. Another whole thing is the level of service and cost of transit in rural areas
12:34:34 From Gil Penalosa: The only INDIVIDUAL mode of mobility for most people is to walk and ride bicycles, including all children and youth under 16 yr/o. It must be safe and enjoyable for all, as a right. Unless someone thinks that individual mobility is just for those who have the age, money and desire to have a car
12:34:40 From David Crenna: WHO and others are now focusing much more on airborne transmission as the main source of COVID-19 infections, so what new research has been done on air filtration on transit systems?
12:34:58 From Kulwinder Sarai: From Kulwinder… thank you very much.
12:35:01 From Jamilla Mohamud to All panelists: yes! such critical questions “who are we designing for and why?”
12:35:02 From Anika Abdullah: Yes Stephanie!! If we don’t budget for accessibility from the beginning how will we create accessible options?
12:35:13 From Abby S: @Daniella, yes aware of distance being more..but I wonder if it should be reversed to that it would bring those outside the core into the core…
12:36:25 From Leigh Stickle: A possible negative side effect might be encouraging sprawl and increasing emissions
12:36:37 From Shilpa Dogra: And let’s not forget about older adults. Transportation options are critical to prevent social isolation.
12:36:52 From Abby S: We need political will and a lot of imagination…
12:37:03 From jay pitter to All panelists: True adjusting and adapting is assign of inequitable design. Physical and social accessibility should be centred and entrenched in ALL infrastructure design.
12:37:11 From Abby S: @leigh True true.
12:37:20 From jay pitter to All panelists: *a sign
12:37:38 From Abby S: (although depends upon mode of transport wrt to emissions)
12:37:38 From Daniella Fergusson: Thank you Shilpa – there’s so much moralizing about whether it’s ok for people to take the bus one or two stops when they “could just walk instead” – and for folks with disabilities or older folks, it might make a real difference just to take the bus for a stop or two
12:37:41 From David Crenna: The whole inter-urban bus transit system has essentially collapsed, which is important for those in rural areas and small towns who don’t drive. What is the situation of those people, many of them elderly and needing to get to the doctor in cities…
12:37:43 From Catalina Parada: Thanks Stephanie! It is imperative to consider everyone’s needs at the very inception of transportation decisions
12:38:02 From Anika Abdullah: @Shilpa this is more important than ever. Social isolation has significant impacts on communities and individuals
12:38:27 From Catalina Parada: it’s sad to see projects where the “accessibility” and “equity” sections are one paragraph or less
12:39:01 From Amina Yasin to jay pitter and all panelists: Hi big sis
12:39:07 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: Let’s not forget that Cities have the space, it just requires us to re-prioritize space away from private automobiles and into safe spaces for PWD, transit, cycling and other modes of transportation. We also need to be honest about the health and safety impacts of our mobility systems today and what scale of investments are required if we truly want to create equitable spaces and places
12:39:11 From David Crenna: “Equitable places” is a great focus!
12:40:12 From Elizabeth MacLeod: How easy is it to apply for the program?
12:40:14 From jay pitter to All panelists: Dignified subsidy is key.
12:40:56 From Canadian Urban Institute: Reminding attendees to please change your chat settings to “all panelists and attendees” so everyone can see your comments.
12:42:12 From Gil Penalosa: Equity. All Canadians are contributing to Toronto to move elevated Gardiner 100 meters north at a cost of $2 Billion to save 3 minutes to 2% of commuters. Also paying $6Billion for 1-3 stop subway which will reach a small segment of Scarborough residents instead of 17-24 stop LRT reaching all, especially priority neighbourhoods. Also $2 Billion to have Eglinton W LRT buried instead of at ground, easily done. Better options of 3 examples would save $7.5 Billion to all Canadians. We must demand gov better decisions, but most elected officials and ‘civic leaders’ are mute
12:42:52 From Mike Prescott: What metrics exist for equity?
12:43:04 From David Crenna: “On-demand” services for essential workers seems like a good place to start, especially given links across other issues!
12:43:05 From jay pitter: @Gil YES!!!!
12:43:06 From Lisa Slater: No one has mentioned the possibility of taxing hi-emission, cars over a certain price, gas at higher rates as a way to further subsidize public transit or is that a politically toxic option?
12:43:08 From Laurel Davies Snyder: Yes, we need political will. Should we also be questioning which decisions should actually up for debate (i.e. if they are clearly in line with the public good, climate crisis, etc. ?
12:43:31 From Matthew Davis: Gil those are good points but the question should be what type of equity analysis was undertaken to inform those decisions?
12:43:43 From Tamika Butler: Not just a privilege! Yes!!!
12:43:44 From jay pitter: Hahahahaha…
12:43:58 From Tamika Butler: Bellow. Lol…
12:44:03 From Mike Prescott: Equity metrics for inclusive transportation?
12:44:24 From jay pitter: @Tamika — yes sis.x
12:44:44 From Bernice Paul: Transportation and Housing need brought together as one topic. We need to stop thinking of them as two different things.
12:45:05 From Matthew Davis: @Gil I agree we have those big moves on transit (provincial) need more due diligence from the equity perspective. Spending that kind of money when there are other needs in the city and the region requires it
12:45:46 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: “How do we support and not penalize people to get through a broken system?” – good one.
12:45:59 From Michael Roschlau: Let’s stop talking about “subsidizing” transit. The service has two funding components – user fees (fares) and a society contribution. On average across Canada, that ratio is about 60-40. What is it for roads???
12:46:24 From Matthew Davis: @Bernice Paul absolutely!!! but the money supporting them comes from different pots, especially with the large portion of housing coming from the private sector (at least in Toronto). So the priorities looking at both are different depending on who’s paying, unfortunately…
12:47:11 From Jamilla Mohamud: yes housing and transit go hand in hand
12:47:48 From Elizabeth MacLeod: People will ALWAYS need to use transit and if we build it it will be used.
12:48:06 From Tamika Butler: Say that, Amina!
12:48:50 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: That’s also an affordability issue
12:48:53 From Sebastien Pentland-Hyde to All panelists: There will always be transit users, often for most needy but usage probably has, and will go down no?
12:49:00 From David Crenna: Focus on those forced to be mobile on transit an excellent starting point… so the issue is are they being kept safe?
12:49:01 From Daniella Fergusson: yesss Amina!
12:49:09 From jay pitter: Yes Amina!!!!!
12:49:13 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: So many friends of mine who work in Vancouver end up needing to move out to suburbs to make costs work
12:49:36 From Jamilla Mohamud: yup!
12:49:38 From Jacqueline Canales to All panelists: Amina, thanks you for adding your perspective to this session
12:49:45 From jay pitter: Yes sis —
12:50:12 From Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at https://www.canurb.org/citytalk
12:50:46 From Catalina Parada: And Jane is one of the corridors that has had overcrowding!
12:50:54 From Elizabeth MacLeod: Thank you Amina!
12:51:08 From mary margaret gelinas: Hi attendees, what was the name of that “champion” please?
12:51:15 From Mikaila Montgomery: Transportation equity tool out of Toronto- does someone have more info on that?
12:51:41 From Matthew Palm to All panelists: Right. It’s not rocket science!
12:51:45 From Katie Wittmann to All panelists: Matthew Davis:)
12:52:02 From Canadian Urban Institute: Keep the conversation going #citytalk @canurb
12:52:30 From Cibele Donato to All panelists: thank you Amina! is neutrality a design problem too?
12:52:38 From Matthew Davis: Thanks Amina! We are doing our best to turn things around here in Toronto
12:52:42 From Sarah Webb to All panelists: @ Mikaila – I am interested too if you find it.
12:52:46 From Canadian Urban Institute: …but while you’re here please change your chat settings to “all panelists and attendees” so everyone can see your comments.
12:52:59 From Sarah Webb: @ Mikaila – I am interested too if you find it.
12:53:10 From Cibele Donato: thank you Amina! is neutrality a design problem too?
12:53:28 From Lisa Cavicchia: Matthew Davis, City of Toronto Twitter: @drtjrz6
12:53:59 From mary margaret gelinas: @lisa thank you! just saw him in the comments too
12:54:02 From Tamika Butler: Our work is not neutral, can’t be. It’s done too much harm already and keeping it neutral perpetuates that harm
12:54:11 From Matthew Davis: @Mikaila it is an emerging tool we are developing. Right now it’s more for internal use but we hope to be able to share it to the public through our next capital budget submission
12:54:20 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Panelists, I am curious as to what you think about regional growth management in relationship to transportation planning? Considering all the interconnected issues of housing, jobs, etc. 

The impacts of transit planning and design and gentrification that contributes to inaffordablity of housing, furthering the divide and pushing folks who have been marginalized by oppressive systems out of affordable transportation.
12:54:39 From Gil Penalosa: Over 80% of Toronto is Zoned as Single Family! We must be bold and do as Minneapolis in 2019, ending citywide single family zoning, able to subdivide in 2, 3, 4. Housing and Transportation two sides of same coin
12:54:46 From Matthew Davis: It is part of a larger Capital Program Prioritization process, bringing Equity to the forefront in decision making
12:55:42 From maisa barbosa to All panelists: yes Amina! But how do we ensure transit is not only “due to lack of options”? What if we have another wave of “white flight” and even more defunding of transit (because there is a political power inbalance that we cant solve right away)?
12:55:44 From Mikaila Montgomery: Also interested in equity and climate frameworks for e-bike incentive programs. Thanks everyone!
12:55:54 From David Crenna: One key and relevant policy innovation recently by Edmonton is removal of all parking requirements, a hold-over from the 1970s… See: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/colby-cosh-edmontons-radical-step-on-parking-regulation-and-the-economist-who-made-it-possible/wcm/36f80a2c-9faf-4cc9-b1b4-9a95bf58ee01/.
12:56:06 From Catalina Parada: https://www.ttc.ca/Coupler/PDFs/Diversity%20and%20Inclusion%20Lens.pdf
12:56:09 From Canadian Urban Institute: What did you think of today’s conversation? Help us improve our programming with a short post-webinar survey – https://bit.ly/3fAOVkp
12:56:21 From Gil Penalosa: These 3 minutes are about current opportunity bbc.in/2AyUQHj
12:56:41 From Sebastien Pentland-Hyde to All panelists: David have other cities in Canada also removed parking requirements?
12:56:44 From Lisa Cavicchia: Edmonton also had a e-bike rebate program: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/environmental_stewardship/electric-vehicles.aspx
12:56:48 From Lisa Slater: How can we get access to all the chat links after the podcast is over?
12:57:20 From Judith Farvolden to All panelists: Mobilizing Justice will develop a shared vision for social equity and emerging transportation technologies, and to identify future research needs in this area. https://mobilizingjustice.ca/
12:57:32 From Canadian Urban Institute: Everything will be posted here, folks: https://canurb.org/citytalk-news/?type=recent_discussions
12:57:32 From Yuri Artibise: Lisa, You can save the chat by clicking on the 3 dots to the right of the chat entry box. —>
12:58:11 From Caroline Poole, CUI Staff to Lisa Slater and all panelists: Lisa, everything will be posted on CUI’s CityTalk blog after the talk! This includes the zoom recording, chat transcript, and video transcript!
12:58:32 From Caroline Poole, CUI Staff to Lisa Slater and all panelists: You can find it all here: https://canurb.org/citytalk-canada
12:58:49 From Matthew Palm: Yes! Tired of ‘magic bullet’ bullet discourse here.
12:59:21 From Sarah Webb: Not about us without us:)
12:59:33 From Cheryl Cohen: Hello, I always say that one of the smartest things Toronto did with transportation was to put room for a subway under the Bloor Viaduct before subways were here. Can we now plan with forward-thinking such as that?
12:59:45 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Its also cannot be an Instant Pot approach
12:59:46 From Phoenix Wong: \'[
13:00:02 From Bernice Paul: Hi @Sarah Webb!!
13:00:09 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Thank you Armi
13:00:32 From Phoenix Wong: Sorry that was my 10 month old, she got a hold of the keyboard.
13:00:42 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Oh my goodness. Jay Pitter’s call to courage.
13:00:53 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: So good
13:00:58 From Catalina Parada: many thanks for sharing these resources!!
13:00:58 From Lin Wong: aww:)
13:00:59 From Abby S: @phoenix was trying to figure out the meaning of that emoji
13:01:03 From Leigh Stickle: Thanks to all panelists! Great conversation, to be carried on.
13:01:16 From Carmichael Polonio: She had something to say @Phoenix
13:01:21 From Caroline Poole, CUI Staff: You can find Jay Pitter’s Call to Courage here: https://canurb.org/wp-content/uploads/OpenLetter-ACallToCourage-Final-June2020.pdf
13:01:27 From Tamika Butler: Thank you, Amina! You came ready for your minute!!! Love the way we always give love and put one another on! This panel was awesome! This isn’t about one of us, but all of us and our people still trying to get free!
13:01:29 From Caroline Poole, CUI Staff: A NECESSARY read for all urbanists!
13:01:46 From Tamika Butler: https://medium.com/at-the-intersections/a-tale-of-two-truths-transportation-and-nuance-in-the-time-of-covid-19-9bc99ff8c005
13:01:47 From David Crenna: Actually I thinkshe just created a new short form for Trump…
13:01:51 From Matthew Davis: Awesome, thanks to all of the panelists!
13:01:51 From Sarah Webb: With appreciation all
13:01:57 From Tamika Butler: https://medium.com/at-the-intersections
13:02:02 From Jackson Foster: Thank you all! This was great.
13:02:06 From Daniella Davila Aquije to All panelists: Yes please, do post the list
13:02:14 From Shafaq Choudry to All panelists: Thank you all!
13:02:15 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Yay! Babies!
13:02:19 From Tamika Butler: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-08/-safe-streets-are-not-safe-for-black-lives
13:02:22 From Daniella Davila Aquije to All panelists: Thanks to all panelists, great session
13:02:38 From Shannon Holness to All panelists: Amina and Armi—> BIG LOVE
13:02:42 From Anika Abdullah: Thank you, Tamika! And, Mary and all the panelists!!
13:02:45 From Elizabeth MacLeod: Thank you panelists!
13:02:45 From Matthew Davis: Thanks to all the voices in the chat too! So much info sharing!!
13:02:48 From Tamika Butler: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/24/op-ed-whose-streets-black-streets/
13:02:51 From Luna Aixin to All panelists: Thank you so much!
13:02:54 From Lin Wong: thank you, amazing session:)
13:02:54 From David Crenna: Great conversation!
13:02:56 From Matthew Palm: Thank you so much.
13:02:59 From Martha Sickles to All panelists: Thanks all these are great convesations.
13:03:00 From Elizabeth MacLeod: Thank you too Tamika!
13:03:01 From Clara Kwon: thank you!
13:03:03 From Jc Elijah Bawuah: Thank you all!