COVID Signpost 100 Days: Spotlight on Ontario

Hosted by Arielle Kayabaga, Ward 13 Councillor, London, ON. Featuring Rino Bortolin, Ward 3 Councillor, Windsor, Shelley Carroll, Ward 17 Councillor, Toronto, Shelby Ch’ng, Northwood Ward Councillor, Thunder Bay, and Kemi Akapo, Ward 3 Councillor, Peterborough.

5 Key

A roundup of the most compelling ideas, themes and quotes from this candid conversation

1. The pandemic has magnified issues that existed before COVID

Issues that cities had prior to COVID have been exacerbated in the last 100 days. These include issues of housing affordability, homelessness, transit, food insecurity, and more.

It is important to remember that these are long-standing issues within Canadian municipalities and must continue to be addressed once COVID is behind us. It is also important to remember that these issues are all interconnected and have deep ties to ongoing conversations around equity within cities.

2. We need strategies to address racism at the local level

To date, three migrant workers have died as a result of COVID within the province of Ontario. Due in part to the number of confirmed cases among migrant workers, Windsor has yet to move into phase two of their reopening plan. This has angered some residents who are anxious to see their economy reopen and, in some cases, resulted in racist backlash. Canadian cities need to continue to focus on the differential impacts of COVID, and directly respond to discrimination experienced by some equity-seeking groups during this time.

3. Remote communities have their own unique experiences with COVID

Northern Ontario cities, such as the City of Thunder Bay, have seen comparatively few cases of COVID—but other crises are emerging as a result of the virus. For instance, the City of Thunder Bay has a large Indigenous population and many of the resources previously dedicated to these communities have been redirected during COVID. The City is also dealing with an ongoing opioid crisis, which has led to far higher numbers of deaths within their communities than COVID.

4. Job losses need to be considered at the household level

The millions of Canadian jobs lost during the last 100 days has been among the most significant impact of COVID, but it is also important for cities to examine job losses at the household level. “COVID Signpost 100 Days,” a report published by the Canadian Urban Institute, examines the number of urban Canadians who report that someone within their household has lost their job as a result of COVID. It is important to consider the impact that job loss can have on Canadian families, particularly those with young children, who often depend on two incomes.

5. The long-term care system must be reformed

It has become exceedingly clear that Canada’s long-term care system needs to be reformed. Changes must be made to ensure adequate standards of care across all long-term care facilities in Canada. Conversations about reforming long-term care must also take into account those who work within these facilities, as these essential workers continue to be underappreciated and underpaid.

Full Panel

Note to readers: This video session was transcribed using auto-transcribing software. Manual editing was undertaken in an effort to improve readability and clarity. Questions or concerns with the transcription can be directed to with “transcription” in the subject line. 

Stop #3: Spotlight on Ontario


Arielle Kayabaga [00:00:20] Hello and welcome everyone. My name is Arielle Kayabaga. I’m a city councilor for London Ontario. On behalf of the Canadian Urban Institute, I want to thank all of you who are tuning to today’s COVID 100 event with the spotlight on Ontario. This is one of the six events today that are happening on our coast to coast tour examining how COVID has impacted Canadian cities. There was also a panel in French in Montreal. If you missed it. And I would like to start by recognizing that today’s events are taking place on the territory of many First Nations, but I’m hosting from London, Ontario. So I’d like to take the opportunity to honor the land on which I stand on. And also honor the indigenous peoples whose traditional territory I stand on today. This land was once settled by the Attawandaron peoples, later Algonquin and Haudenoseunee peoples used the lands as their traditional hunting grounds.  The three long-standing indigenous groups of this region are the Anishinaabe peoples, including the Ojibwe, Odawa, Potawatomi nations and the Haudenoseunee people, including the Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga, Onondaga, Seneca, Tuscarora nations and the Lenni Lenape peoples, also referred to as the Delaware or Muncees. I would also like to recognize the three first nation communities neighboring the city of London: Chippewa of the Thames first nation, Oneida nations of the Thames and the Muncee Delaware nations. I want all of us to acknowledge the many long-standing treaty relationships between Indigenous nations and Canada. We recognize that every level of government has a responsibility to honor the nation to nation relationship and that we as individuals have a role to play in honouring the treaties and contributing to a path towards reconciliation. Meegwetch [00:02:24]Yancoal and his shick. [1.1s] Before I continue, I want us to take a moment of silence for the Black and Indigenous lives that have recently been claimed through police brutality and the many Canadian lives that have been lost through COVID-19. We’ll take a moment of silence.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:03:07] Given the very difficult relationships that Canada has had with Indigenous and Black communities, as we watch the world shift and change, be claimed by members, leaders and elders of these communities, it is important that we do not become numb or silent to to the atrocities that are happening here in our own country. I want to say that Black lives matter. Indigenous lives matter here in our country. Canadians’ experiences with COVID-19, has been highly uneven and have depended largely on who we are, where we live. And today the Canadian Urban Institute released a report which, using city-level and race-based data, argues that COVID is deepening existing inequities in Canada. The report is available at This conversation will take a closer look at the impact of COVID in Ontario over the one hundred days. I will introduce my speakers. I’ll start with Councillor Kemi Akapo. Kemi is the Ward 3 councilor in Peterborough. She is the first. She’s in her first term. And just like myself, Kemi is the first black woman to be elected on council in Peterborough. She is a Nigerian born who came here and chose to stay. Welcome, Kemi. Also joining us is Councillor Shelley Carroll, who was first elected in 2003 as a city councilor. Councillor Carroll also served as a trustee in 2000, prior to joining the Toronto City Council, she is the Ward 17 Don Valley councillor. Welcome, Shelley Carroll. Joining us from Thunder Bay is Councillor Shelby Ch’ng, who is the Northwood Ward councillor. She she was first elected in 2014, is currently serving in her second term. Councilor Ch’ng is an entrepreneur, an antie, a sister, a daughter and a wife. Welcome councillor Ch’ng.


Shelby Ch’ng [00:05:07] Thank you very much.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:05:08] Last but not least, closer neighbour in the south western area we have Councillor Rino Bortolin. He is a business advocate, a downtown representative, the Ward 3 councillor in the City of Windsor. Councillor Bortolin is a father and husband. Welcome counsillor Bortolin.


Rino Bortolin [00:05:24] Thank you.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:05:26] And I also want to welcome all of our participants who are watching today. I encourage you to use the chat function in the Zoom and to ask questions, to engage in conversation, start the discussions. A summary of this conversation, including the comments of the chat, will be posted following the session and a full transcript, including chat content will also be available online. And if you can use your social media as we chat live, please don’t forget to use the #COVID100. So we’ll get started. I’m going to ask every one of you to say hi. And to, you know, in your hi, include a story about how reopening and life through this new norm that COVID has created for us is going to look like for your city and how you’re working with different communities to keep everyone safe. I’ll start with Councillor Akapo.


Kemi Akapo [00:06:22] Hello. Thank you so much for that introduction and for having me here today. Reopening. So that is that is the term of the day, I would say.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:06:41] Councillor Kemi, I’m not sure if you can hear us. Oh, we lost her.


Kemi Akapo [00:06:50] Focusing on a number of ways…


Arielle Kayabaga [00:06:51] Councillor Akapo, do you mind repeating what you what you were saying? We lost you a little bit. There was a freeze.


Kemi Akapo [00:06:59] Oh, I’m sorry. Yeah.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:07:00] This is all part of COVID-19 so its okay.


Kemi Akapo [00:07:05] Yeah. So first up, get better Internet access. Well what are they saying is that our opening plan looks at where we’re approaching it from many different facets. So one thing that we started last week and we’re continuing this week is having a look at our streets to see how we can close some portions of the streets to vehicular traffic to allow more spaces for patios to open for pedestrians and cyclists. You have more space to physical distance as well.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:07:47] Technology never promises. I think we were..


Kemi Akapo [00:07:57] Did I freeze again?


Arielle Kayabaga [00:07:58] Yes, you did.


Kemi Akapo [00:08:00] All right. I will switch to my phone if somebody else wants to go ahead.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:08:04] Yes. We’ll go to Councilor Ch’ng and then we’ll come back to councillor Akapo. Thank you. Councillor Ch’ng?


Shelby Ch’ng [00:08:15] Oh, yes. Hi. It’s Shelby Ch’ng from Thunder Bay. We are also doing the doing outside patios. It was a pilot project from two years ago that seemed to get some people, some businesses working on outside patios, but now everyone wants to do outdoor patios. And I think it’s going to be a bit of a cultural shift in the food and beverage industry, which I’m actually kind of looking for if it does have a positive impact on businesses. However, we do have a lot of businesses that are struggling to keep their doors open, mainly in the food and service industry. I own a small business as well and can understand that a lot of businesses are predicated on large gatherings. So as we unfold and unwrap moving to a post-COVID, I think that we’re going to be seeing a number of changes and we’re going to be.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:09:19] Thank you, Councillor Ch’ng. And if anyone has joined using two separate device, if you could just mute one or both if someone is talking, it would really be helpful to not make the echo sound. I’ve been on Zoom so much that I know that a little information. Thank you. So now we will go to councillor Carroll.


Shelley Carroll [00:09:44] Well, thank you. Yes, Councillor Carroll. I represent a Ward in the northern suburb of the City of Toronto, Don Valley North, and citywide, we’re doing a huge amount. Currently, the city’s transit system is trying to run at almost 100 percent so that we can have physical distancing, but but we only have between 15 and 30 percent of riders depending on the route. So currently, the transit system is losing about 20 million a week. So you can imagine how quickly that will add up over the 100 days. So we’re we’re doing our best to run that. But it’s been a real challenge. We’re also cognizant of the fact that people are just opting not to use transit, even if they may be slowly returning to work. So 40 kilometers of new bike lanes. We have a quiet streets program so that out in the neighborhood streets there’s a little more room to create distance for children playing and bikes moving around on neighborhood streets. We’re still we’re still in phase one, unlike the rest of Ontario. And so there’s still pretty stringent rules around the use of parks and the use of sports equipment, etcetera. But we’re already preparing for when that opens up. We also have a huge problem with the homeless and food security issues. And so we have spent most of the hundred days scrambling to make sure that we can create safe shelter for for for for those who were shelter residents already and those who are starting to move towards them and so quickly acquiring fifteen hundred hotel rooms, a huge amount of things. And so that when you look at the COVID 100 report, where you see us going off the charts, a lot of it is really about density, size and scope and how COVID-19 impacts on that.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:11:46] Well, thank you. Councillor Carroll, you really did just dig in to all of my questions. We’ll zoom in again. Thank you. So now we will do to Councillor Bortolin. Welcome, Councillor Bortolin.


Rino Bortolin [00:11:59] Thank you. As you mentioned, I’ve been councillor for the downtown area for the most part. I was a restaurant owner chef. So I you know, I know exactly a lot of the pain that I would say everybody across the province is going through. So to Shelley’s point, we are also still in phase one. We have a unique situation down here in Windsor with migrant workers in Essex County and as well a unique issue with the border. So we have a very tight relationship with Detroit and Michigan. We have thousands of nurses that cross the border every day to work in Detroit. So there’s been issues with that. Obviously, the truck flow and the flow of goods and services across the border has been a concern so that when FCA and Chrysler finally got up and running to make sure that their parts and everything were coming in on time. So there’s been a lot of challenges. I’m hopeful that a lot of these discussions, including ones like this today will lead to a different conversation. And I think Shelley touched on a lot of issues that are similar here in different in different scope, obviously. But obviously, public transit was a unique issue in Windsor. The issue is tied to, I think, that this epidemic put a renewed focus on our homeless population and the social issues that are plaguing a lot of our smaller cities and large ones, I guess, like Toronto. So I’m hoping that the conversation that comes out of this is actually focusing on some of those priorities, which I’m starting to see. But we still, you know, we are still not re-opening at this point. So we are actually trying to deal with just what that means for the psyche of the people who are really eager, not just the business people who are looking to open up, but also for people who just want to go sit in a restaurant and, you know, do something beyond sit at home. So, you know, there’s where we’re trying to manage peoples’ expectations. And it’s now getting a little complicated because we don’t, you know, we’re starting to see people pointing fingers, blaming things like the migrant population, which isn’t really fair. So now we start going down a slippery slope of, you know, even some insensitive and semi-racist comments. So we’re trying to not let that boil over and trying to do things and keep everybody still sort of staying in control as we sort of hope to go to phase two soon.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:14:31] Thank you. Thank you so much. I think we will definitely dig deeper into what’s happening in Windsor. I’d like to chat about the transit situation now. We’ll go back to Councillor Akapo. If she’s back with us.


Kemi Akapo [00:14:46] Can you hear me?


Arielle Kayabaga [00:14:46] Yes, we can hear you. So, Councillor Akapo, tell us a little bit about what reopening is going to look like for your city and how you guys are going to work with the community to keep everyone safe.


Kemi Akapo [00:15:00] Sure. So, as I mentioned before, the opening of the streets or changes to the transit system. And definitely we also have had to address, as I’m sure every municipality has, the concerns around folks who are experiencing homelessness. And so part of what we did is we have a municipally owned recreational center. So we shut that down, obviously, and we moved folks who were staying at our local shelter to that recreational facility. However, now that things are reopening and we’ve had to start investigating other avenues because it’s still too soon to to relocate those folks who are using the shelter back to the original shelters so that is a unique challenge that we’re facing as well. One thing that hasn’t gone away is the need for more housing. So that’s something that we’ve been working on throughout the crisis as well. It’s an issue we had before and it’s an issue that we’ll have that has just been exacerbated now and that will continue going forward. But we’ve worked also really closely with our Peterborough Public Health. They’ve been amazing through this. I think this pandemic has really shown us, for folks who didn’t realize before, really showing us now how important it is to have locally based public health information. They they are one of the heroes of the situation. But we take a lot of direction from them as well as from the province as well.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:16:36] Thank you. So that brings us in and for everyone who’s watching, I have a child with me in my house and I’ve done a lot of incentives to keep him quiet. But if that doesn’t work out, I tried. That brings us to the next question I guess, we know that COVID-19 has disproportionately impacted different cities. It has impacted women, older adults, marginalized community, including Indigenous and Black communities. Can you speak on this impact, what this impact looks like in your city and what you’re you’re doing or what you’ve done or planning to do to face the challenges that and what are some of the specific areas that you are currently working on? And I’m going to start with Councillor Carroll from Toronto because I know that a lot of challenges in terms of race-based data were in Toronto and in the Ontario sector. I’m interested to know what you guys are doing to to address this. You did mention about the food shortage. You did mentioned about, you know, the housing situation. You know what what do we need to do to to actually make sure that we ensure housing for for our communities. What are you guys doing here? You know, I could say so much on it and I’ve heard a lot of think it’s very similar to some of the stuff that London is already doing. But what can we do more? What more can we do? What are you doing currently right now?


Shelley Carroll [00:18:12] Well, for me, that’s the thing is dividing it up, I sort of. I talk about it as what was our situation in the before times? What’s happening right now and what are we going to do in the after COVID times? And so in the before times, we already were really struggling in these areas. We have a pretty good food bank and and food security network and a system that is always adapting and doing its very best in that area. Pretty robust. But, you know, like you hear on American media, a lot of our our food security system is delivered to children and youth through the school system, through the student nutrition system. And so there was that immediate problem and that alone that losing that one piece quickly drove a whole lot more demand to the to the food bank network. And so closing was not an option. So there was a scramble in the first couple of weeks where we needed to relocate. My Ward and a couple of others had the challenge that we deliver our food programs out of, sometimes, community recreation centers. And I think in all municipalities those closed. And so we had to scramble to find alternate locations, had to find the ways for them to function without the volunteer population. Some volunteers just would not take no for an answer and said find a way for us to be able to work. And so within the first couple of weeks, we found a way for some to be able to come back and into deliver through PPE. But but, of course, that drove an initial cost because having to to figure out how our first line workers, paid workers, could build hampers and get them out there meant that was that was the chief activity of the emergency operations center. Housing was an immediate issue. The federal government was very responsive on that. So we’ve been able to acquire, whether through lease or even an emergency purchase, some buildings that were hitting the market then to be able to get fifteen hundred people into shelters because, as you can imagine, in that kind of a congregated setting, the virus found its way there pretty quick. As soon as there was community spread, the amount of workers and volunteers that are trying to help us in that area meant that that population was now highly represented in testing positive. And so there was a scramble there. And I think we have to acknowledge that other orders of government moved pretty quickly to help us there are we would have seen a lot more deaths in that particular type of congregated setting. But moving forward, we know that the conversation we were having about housing was really just scratching the surface. We now have to add a layer moving forward. We have some robust housing ambition. We have a thing called Housing Now. Mayor Tory is working with private partners to build these large sites that will build a lot of affordable units. That revitalization going on our social housing units. But post-COVID, we can’t wait for the five years it takes for a forty-three story building to emerge. And so there’s a need now to really look at gentler forms of density that can be built quickly. We’re also we’re doing a modular housing project right now that can be quickly built and be a supportive housing model so that we can quickly move the homeless population we pulled in off the street because of a health concern. Can we take this opportune moment and build our capacity to to actually live in housing? And so we’ve got a modular housing project that will be adopted at the end of June and the tenders already been done. Council will sign off on the design of it and it will immediately begin build because we have to start to look at not just more affordability, but stuff that can be produced quickly because we really need to make a significant gain or we’re really going to lose ground that will that will cost us a decade in social costs. And so that that as happily arrived at council. In the early draft of this, we already had a virtual meeting where there was real consensus of people that might have slowed it down, might have added conditions and said report backs and get going. And so there’s a real move in that. The convergence of the protests about the death of George Floyd and a recent death in the presence of police officers, we don’t know the details yet, but the protests are spreading, which has caused a convergence of of the COVID-19 effect on the Black Torontonian population. And also the protest has led to taking an action plan that we developed a year ago after years of years of consultation,  Confronting Anti-Black Racism Action Plan. But it wasn’t seeing much action. And you’ll see city council now, on the basis of we really need to help this population now, they should be living the same lives we are living, means that changing the way they’re policed and the way they live in the way they’re housed will be addressed much more quickly because that action plan is going to move forward a lot faster now. There’s no question that if each of us has losses of revenue and limited resources, we’ve got to spend per impact. And so there’s a convergence here of the social injustice of it, but also the urgent need. And so we’ll proceed with that. And hopefully you’ll be you’ll be seeing the contents of that starting to appear in the paper next. That needed to be done in the before time. And in the after times, we have to find faster ways to do it. And we we’ve got to pool revenues in a new and more energetic way.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:24:38] Thank you, Councilor Carroll. And I think what I can add to that is that as as the plan moves forward, especially in terms of housing, finding housing for people, it is also important that the engagement happens at a community level in terms of involving the marginalized community with different voices, because it’s important that when we build as us as city builders, we we consider what the work of anti anti racism. You know, it’s it’s really, really important to hear from all voices. And right now, many more conversations that we can go on, especially when it comes to Toronto and the impact of COVID and the impact of of, you know, the gun violence in Toronto and what the city can do. And unfortunately, we don’t have a lot of time. We will we will certainly find more time to chat about this. I just want to make sure that everybody weighs in into the conversation. I want to go to Councillor Bortolin just to speak on this question as well. Just because he did mention he did mention, Councillor, that there is an issue around racism in your city. And I’m curious to know how you guys are working to address that. What what does that look like for you guys as well? Just quickly, so then we can move on to the next question.


Rino Bortolin [00:25:58] Well, it’s unique now because it’s it’s it has more to do with the migrant worker issue than what I would say embedded in Windsor, because Windsor is not a region, Windsor-Essex is not a region like like many of the other areas of the province. In this scenario, because public health’s response to the entire region, those numbers and the numbers in the migrant worker population are impacting our numbers and our ability to go to phase two. And so because everybody is very eager to get to phase two and very eager to get moving, especially with small business owners, we’re seeing a lot of finger pointing and a lot of sort of. More so just out of frustration more than anything. To be honest, this is an issue that we often willingly, willingly ignore in this area. The migrant worker issue and the human rights issues tied to that issue have been a concern for years. But it’s not something you hear of that often. And so in this scenario, it’s really because it’s holding us back from going to phase two. You know how we’re dealing with it. I mean, this is a very complicated issue because there’s federal agencies and ministries involved because it’s a federal program. Provincial. We need provincial help. We’re talking 10,000 migrant workers, agricultural workers, potentially another 3,000 coming within two weeks. So this isn’t a small population. This is a large group of people packed into small spaces, all interacting with each other on a daily basis. So the spread happens quickly. I think just the numbers in Kingsville, Leamington, over the last few weeks equal more than all of the rest of the Windsor area for the last two months. So it’s it’s a challenge. And so how we’re responding to this specific issue of racism is unique because we’re just we’re just trying to keep it fact-based, science-based, data driven as far as how we’re reacting to it. That’s not to say, as as Shelley mentioned, a lot of issues in the a lot of issues in Windsor that were were issues beforehand. But the magnifying glass of this pandemic has really brought them to light. And the one thing that I think we never want to talk about in Windsor is we have some of the highest child poverty rates in the country, in the west side of Windsor. And we’re always afraid to actually talk about that openly in the city. We’re fearful that it would scare off investment, those types of things. And I think a lot of the issues tied to poverty when it comes to planning, transit services, education and school board decisions, all these types of things, and how they impact those specific neighborhoods and how they impact the equity issue have really been brought to light because of this, because of the pandemic. So I’m hoping those conversations continue well past COVID and into, you know, post-COVID era.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:29:15] I agree with you. I agree that, you know, as we’re impacted. Everything is connected, everything is interconnected. And like you said, there’s been a magnifying glass on the inequities that have been in Canada and in Canadian cities for a long time. And we’re talking about it as if it’s new, but it’s really not new. I want to go to Councilor Ch’ng to talk. About some of the ways that the City of Sudbury is is looking to address some of these disproportions that we’re seeing in the report today, and I know many of you have had the time to read the report. But the report does, it has impacted Ontario the most, the second most. I want to know how how’s your city dealing with transit, homelessness? What are you guys looking to do in Sudbury? And how does this impact your the Indigenous communities around Sudbury?


Shelby Ch’ng [00:30:09] I’m in Thunder Bay, maybe 16 hours further west. That’s all right.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:30:17] I’m so sorry about that. I don’t know why I kept Sudbury in my mind.


Shelby Ch’ng [00:30:22] At least you didn’t mix us up with North Bay. We usually get North Bay. So the the City of Thunder Bay is a population of one hundred and ten thousand people. The closest Canadian municipality that is quite large is Winnipeg, which is about an eight hour drive away. So we are are quite remote in northern Ontario. That’s northern Ontario. And we’ve actually seen one case, one death of COVID-19 in Thunder Bay. We’ve had maybe a few dozen actual cases of COVID. So COVID hasn’t really hit us the way other it has in other municipalities. So when I’m reading the news from Toronto, Montreal or anywhere in Alberta, the cases are not as prevalent here. What we. So we actually are suffering more from the social cure of COVID than we are from COVID itself. What it has brought, I think, people together in a certain way that I didn’t think I thought was always possible are always, always plausible to bring people together, but not possible because people are people. So when things like the Black Lives Matter protests happen, you can see how people. Like that was the largest protest we’ve ever seen in Thunder Bay. And I think it was due in part to people understanding and developing a skill set to work together to be able to talk and develop language, develop language around COVID. And what transmission means develop. And I think it’s going to bleed into developing language to help combat the effects of racism that that we see in our community. We have a very high indigenous population. We’re on the traditional territory for Fort William First Nation, and not only that, we have our own Indigenous people. We are the hub for northern communities to come to Thunder Bay. So we have Nishnawbe Aski Nation. We have Treaty Three and it’s all in abutment of different racial tensions. But people see Indigenous people as one homogenous mix when they really come from different territories and different ideas and cultures have developed. So has COVID directly affected us? No, it’s all the spillover of social social distancing, washing your hands. How do we connect in other ways? And developing that skill set I think is going to help us again with the effects of racism. One of the big issues that I have with, you know, we have this blanket approach for all of Ontario, but we’re very unique in northern Ontario is that we have a very high opiate crisis. We have high drug use. We have more people dying of overdoses and suicides every year than I think we’re going to see with COVID. So what I’m looking at all these resources being pumped into a boogie man that really doesn’t exist for us when we have major issues of racism, gangs and guns. Seven Youth Inquest. We had seven youth pass away in the last 12 years in Thunder Bay. Nine youth now, since that report’s come out. We have some major issues that I think, while COVID doesn’t solve, it’s I think it’s going to help us develop a different skill set and help us think about different things differently as a as a community to help move us forward in a post-COVID world.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:33:43] Thank you for sharing, and I’m really sorry again for confusing, I think a lot of people loop that whole area. So my next question, I’m going to go to Councillor Akapo, when it comes to job loss. There has been at least three cities in Ontario that have shown to have high numbers of job loss where people have lost their jobs. And we have seen that this has specifically impacted women, students and different groups. And I just want to know some of the conversations that your councils already having around tackling this issue. How will you address this job loss? I don’t know if this specifically address your your your city, but it does affect entire of Ontario. Businesses have had to do to downsize. There’s been a lot of job loss. So how are you guys going to work towards putting that back on on foot?


Kemi Akapo [00:34:43] Yeah. Thank you. Certainly, Peterborough is not exempt from feeling the economic impacts in terms of job loss here. Our city employees. A lot of people in a wide range of things for certainly the retail and restaurant sector is quite high. And obviously in those sectors, we had to see immediate shutdowns and lots of people losing their jobs. And certainly a thank you to the the Canadian government for introducing their CERB. That’s definitely been helpful. One thing that we’ve done is our mayor and our, so we’ve got the City of Peterborough and then the county of Peterborough, and we work in close partnership with them. So we’ve developed a mayor and wardon economic taskforce. So what that task force does is look and partner with different Peterburough economic development, the local chamber of business, our local downtown BIA and other really large sectors like the manufacturing sector to really try to figure out during this time are there any businesses that can sort of switch the roles that they’re currently playing to either create PPE. At the start we had one of our local distilleries, they started making hand sanitizers. So we tried at the beginning to be a little bit creative to see if there’s anything that could keep existing businesses going. And certainly now with the reopening, we see more people opening back up. You’ve got the patios up and running. But one of the things that this economic taskforce has been doing is trying to figure out, are there ways in which the city can, you know, maybe remove some red tape that would allow businesses to start up and running again. But I do think it’s something that we’re. Peterborough has always had a bit of an employment challenge and I don’t think it’s going to be something that goes away anytime soon. A lot of our people who work here are students as well. So those students have lost their jobs. Some of them have stayed here or they’ve had to go back. We have a college and university as well. I think we we are starting to see some shifts. So, for example, one of our local bookstores, she decided to close. However, she did end up partnering with the neighboring business where she sells her books online. But then the neighboring business is where people come and pick up her books. We are starting to see a lot of people do sharing of offices as well. At least, they’re planning to down the line. So I do think the nature of employment is going to change. Certainly for retail and restaurant businesses, it will stay the same. However, I do think a lot of people are going to start moving online. We’ve seen that our local paper is basically they’ve shut down their offices for good and they’re moving to a virtual newsroom. So I do think we’ll see a lot of that going forward and a lot of potentially new businesses that are running that way. But we as a city, we continue to work with this economic taskforce, but also with our local economic development agencies. They really are the knowledge holders and we just listen to them and help move the agenda forward. Certainly what we can do is help remove, as I mentioned earlier, help remove the red tape to allow businesses to start up and keep going.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:38:17] Thank you, Councillor Akapo for sharing that and I think that many of us here as councillors can all agree that these are some of the things that we have we have looked at. I think if I can add some of the additions that we could do is to really capture who’s not at these conversations, the people who are missing around the table to make sure that we’re capturing some of the businesses in communities that we’ve not been able to reach up to completely. And I think when it comes to job loss, we’re all going to have to work together to to share. Oh I think Councillor Carroll wants to weigh in. Do you want to weigh in, Councillor Carroll?


Shelley Carroll [00:38:56] I just. It’s a thank you and a shout out. Yeah, I just want to shout out to the Canadian Urban Institute, because they’re the first people who captured for me the biggest problem that I think is happening. The stats, not just of job loss, but the number of families for whom someone in the house has lost a job is huge. Across Canada. But but disproportionately in Toronto and in our tower block villages are families where four or five part time jobs are keeping the whole family afloat. And Hamilton, for instance, 50 percent of households, someone’s lost a job and that makes the whole family shaky. And you get the CUI is the first to put that on paper for me. And it gives me a tool to go forward. And that to me is why we’re doing a real focus on youth employment, because we feel that there’ll be a a real clamor by the federal government to get people in the 30s and 40s back to work. But we we run the risk of a generation of youth that will carry COVID on their backs for another decade. Because there just isn’t room to employ them. And so we’re really focusing on on workforce development for them.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:40:25] Yeah. And I think what I was trying to add was that we’re really going to need every levels of government to really support in this because municipalities cannot do it on their own. And as we have seen the quick response from both levels of government, I have been I’m in my first term as a councilor and I have been super surprised that some of the responses was I didn’t expect it. I’ve been appreciative of it. But, you know, this is something that we could have done a long time ago and we wouldn’t have to deal with some of the inequities that are in cities and the way that we fund different cities. Yeah, I appreciate that. So I do want to I’m just conscious of time. And there are two big questions that I really want to, you know, address. So Ontario has the largest population of Indigenous people in all of Canada. We often talk about plans of reconciliation, but many cities in Ontario have failed to provide adequate infrastructure to the Indigenous communities, where simple basic needs such as water has not been accessible to all of our all of the Indigenous communities. In today’s report, we have seen a clear gap in the ways that marginalized communities are accessing food, shelter and more, and they have a higher chance of. Indigenous people have a higher chance of having food shortage, as we’ve seen in the report. So what are we planning to address this?  How are the cities who are closer to. And I know we have three Indigenous communities around London and we could definitely talk about some of the issues that I know, our existing around London. But what are your cities going to do to make sure that they put health plan infrastructure for the Indigenous communities to actually succeed and thrive? And this is an ongoing issue. It’s not it didn’t start just with COVID. I think it has deepened that. And how do we what are we going to do to make sure that we keep every community safe, especially the Indigenous community that we have failed to provide adequate, simple, basic needs for? And anyone who wants to start with this question can go. I didn’t tailor this one specifically for any.


Rino Bortolin [00:42:38] I’ll strat because it’ll probably be I’ll probably be the shortest.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:42:42] Just want to give you guys a heads up. We’re 15 minutes. Mark, we have 15 minutes left. So let’s let’s let’s let’s be good politicians. And answer this very shortly.


Rino Bortolin [00:42:52] So Windsor has a very, I think, comparatively special assembly to Thunder Bay, a lot smaller. So but I think one of the things we need to do is be a lot better at data collection and actually start to look at where and who. We pride ourselves on being a very diverse community, but we don’t actually collect the data to say how those impacts of inequities and services impact those different communities. So I think that’s what Windsor needs to step up and do better.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:43:24] Anyone else? No.


Shelby Ch’ng [00:43:26] Shelby from Thunder Bay. Yeah, I’d like to point out that not all reserves are the same. So we do talk about it often in terms of their issues, but there are very successful reserves. We on the other side of the Fort William First Nation, who I think is they have a great system, their own economy. They, generally speaking, have been quite successful. Some of the issues, especially during COVID, so for a number of northern reserves, whether it’s flooding or fire damage, generally flyout reserves or winter roads that don’t have access. So when they come to Thunder Bay, we have a whole system set up. We have dedicated workers. We have a recreation facility for them. We essentially host them in a hotel or whatnot, depending on how many people come. Sometimes they self evacuate and we make sure tey are taken care of. However, during COVID, the City of Thunder Bay has a third of our staff to just to mitigate the effects of COVID. Now that staff is the extra E.M.S. workers are doing COVID related work. The recreational facility workers are laid off. So the northern communities don’t have the offer of coming to Thunder Bay, being taken care of while they’re being either rebuilt or drying up from the flooding issues. So COVID has had a negative impact in terms of making sure that we could take care of those people.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:45:05] Yeah, I don’t know if Councillor Kapo wants to weight win, but if you don’t, it’s fine. I think if I can speak for for London, we still have a long way to go. We still have a lot of work to do. And I hope that as we continue these conversations on the steps or the items or the things that we’re going to do in the next 100 days, the Indigenous communities and what we have not done, how we have failed these communities can be at the forefront of what we’re going to do alongside with every marginalized, you know, alongside with housing, transit and all the things that we know are the things that keep communities together and strong. And we have failed at keeping a focus on that. So I hope that we continue to keep that focus. So I’m I ask you this question as well. This was one of my biggest question. This goes to Councillor Carroll. And I think anyone who wants to comment can also comment. But I’m going to read you this comment, Councillor Carroll, from Dr. Fátima Jackson. She’s a public health researcher with Black Health Alliance. And she says black women have a history of caregiving in our communities and outside of our communities. We know that labor is like personal support workers, is typically undertaken by Black women, Filipina women and Latina women. So if we know the history of black women being in the forefront line of the care work, we have to know that COVID numbers will be disproportionately affecting black women. So my question is, there has been a detailed, horrific report on the horrific living conditions in long term care homes across the province and over the you know, over the past one hundred thousand seventy eight percent of the Ontario’s COVID casualty have happened within the care of long term care facilities. What’s Toronto going to do to to address that, especially tying it to the comment that Dr. Fatima made. A lot of workers in these long long term care facilities have died or have been impacted by COVID-19. What is Toronto going to do to address this issue and the rest of Ontario? What are we going to do to make sure that we do not allow these facilities to continue to operate the way that they’re operating? What are some of the ideas that we can bring forward?


Shelley Carroll [00:47:28] Well, for starters, you know, there is a this is not just it’s a work condition and that’s the work that’s available to them. And they went for it. The discussion has to make every effort to take racism out of the discussion. We released a heat map of where COVID exists, as best we know it, by address. And of course, it picked two corridors, one to the extreme west and one to the east to be the hotspots. And people said, oh, well, that’s where the poor people live that aren’t even working. We know there’s a problem in that population. Those are neighborhoods where so many hard working women work that don’t have the choice of staying home. Most are going to long term care homes and they’re going on transit systems. And so community spread is something they’re very, very vulnerable to. And so, first of all, let’s take this that, you know, how is COVID finding its way to the people who don’t work out of the equation because it’s the people working who are most at risk. And so what we’ve done is, first of all, where we can take vehicles away from transit systems, we’ve moved it to those areas. There are more busses running on Jane Street now than in normal times so that we can give those women the safety they need. They are disproportionately the people riding those vehicles right now. But I also I reached out to my provincial member right off the bat, and I hope others have done this as well. This conversation of forbidding them to work in multiple places is totally wrong in tone. Forbidding them to work in multiply. They don’t want to work in multiple places. They want to commit to a facility and make it the best facility ever. But our staffing models and the egregious way that particularly the for profit centers choose to shortchange all of their hours so that none of them work with benefits after the work they put in for decades, doing the work that no one else wants to do. You know, taking care of the elderly is the most difficult work. And and we had a conversation this province early in the outbreak that sounded as if they were chancers, working in three different places. They would love to have one full time job with benefits. So we have to overhaul that model. And I don’t mean fiddle around the edge reforms. I mean, we have to really look at whether or not the privatization, so much of what we did there, even though we’re putting so much public money into it, was that fair to the employees? And is it even safe for the residents of those those centers? Any one of the women working in those centers will tell you it’s not, hasn’t been for a long time. And they want to and know how to deliver a better centre. But first, we have to look at them as first responders, not there first responders and there’s long term care workers. They are on the front lines of doing the hardest work in Ontario. And if you want to know how to deliver it better, just ask those women right now. That’s my rant.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:50:37] I agree with you, Councillor Carroll. And I would also like to extend on what you’re saying. And add that, you know, sorry, my son’s moving and he just he just stole my idea in my mind. But, you know, I agree with what you’re saying. It’s just that what. I remember now. I often argue that certain things should remain public services. They should not be privatized, because when we see things like COVID, this is when we see how the inequities deepen. And when and I keep saying this, I’ve been saying this from the beginning, but we really need to be cautious of who we are bringing to the table and who we’re talking to. And I don’t want to go back to this gun violence situation in Toronto, but I I want to touch on it because it’s important if we’re going to talk about thriving cities. When there’s an issue like gun violence, how are we going to solve it if we’re not talking to people who have gone through it, have realized the system and have made it to come in and work with bureaucracy, if you would say, or the political if you would say, and this is the mistake that we have made, we have left important voices, lived experience, voices outside of these conversations. And that’s why we’re seeing these inequities continue to be carried, because people who don’t know what the right decision is are making this decision. So I totally agree with you that we need to ask these women what are the ways that we need to improve on this and I also think that Ontario really needs to step up and change the way that the long term care facilities are being run. It needs to be deprivatized. It’s again, this is this should be we should care for our elderly as a country. We owe them that. And we should be able to do it on a public level, not as a private thing. I don’t know if anybody wants to weigh in on this issue. And I’ll ask you the last question and then we can close and wrap up and let everybody go to the next hotspot.


Kemi Akapo [00:52:41] I just want to say that I 100 percent agree with you that we should. I am never really one that’s pro privatization. I think, you know, maybe at first it sounds like a good idea. But then quickly, once they have sort of a hold on the market, you start to see costs go up, levels of service go down. I’m always usually not in favour for privatized privatization and especially for long term care homes. And I think COVID has shown us why.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:53:10] I agree with you. So my last question to you all. And I really appreciate your time. My last question to you is, what is the one action you’re going to take in the next 100 days? What are you going to do in the next 100 days? And we’ll start with Councillor Ch’ng and then we’ll go to Bortolin and everyone else after.


Shelby Ch’ng [00:53:32] Next hundred days. That is a really good question. I’ve been doing some. What happens after Pandemics? Trying to anticipate the social mentality. So at this moment that’s where I’m spending my time to help anticipate where to go. So not even the next step, but three steps from now, like what happened after the Spanish flu, socially.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:54:01] Thank you, Councillor Ch’ng. And I’ll go to Councillor Bortolin. What are you going to do the next 100 days?


Rino Bortolin [00:54:08] I think one thing we can see immediately is is is refocusing our ability to deliver public transit. I mean, we didn’t really get to it today, but Windsor did cut transit services for a month. One of the only municipalities in the country or in North America to do so. And I think it speaks volumes to the equity issue, to the politicizing aspect of equity, where those communities that don’t vote and show up to vote don’t get their voices heard, especially especially in a time of state of emergency where decisions can be made unilaterally. So I think reaffirming our commitment to transit will be hard. Anytime there’s, you know, work stoppages, things like that, it takes years to recover from that. But making sure that we’re we’re offering up to the level of service, but also continuing on our aggressive plan. We’ve had a plan in place for a couple of years this year, next year, we’re taking critical steps to modernizing and changing our routes and changing our service delivery to really bring it up to a respectable level. So focusing refocusing on that and re reiterating our commitment to that infrastructure along with other things like active transportation in public places like our parks. I think we’ve seen an emphasis on all that. I think a lot of the similar themes that all of us have been talking about here as well and really pushing the equity issues, I think I think after COVID we can’t just look away. I mean, we can’t we can’t say that we we saw that it was a focus for the federal government, provincial government. It has to be the focus of municipal governments as well. So that’s hopefully something I can keep on the front burner. But it will be difficult. But that’s what I’ll be trying to focus on.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:55:59] Thank you. Councillor Carroll.


Shelley Carroll [00:56:02] Well, we’re really hoping similarly, we’re really hoping that the big city mayors caucus and across Canada we make the point that the provinces provinces are going to have to step up in ways they haven’t before, particularly Ontario, to be operating of transit. It’s great to build and cut a ribbon, but we have needed operating funding from the province for our transit system since nineteen ninety five. And so if that’s successful, then we’ll be able to focus on the things we need to on the social side. I will be in the next hundred days, I sit on that particular file as children and youth. So already we’re preparing for some of the mental health challenges of kids who are dying to go back to school when they get there. They’re going to find out it’s not the school they left. That is very different. And we’ll see it demonstrated when they when they enter childcare next week. And and some of the camps that are being opened up. And so we’ll find out, you know, in advance what opening schools is going to be like. At the same time, at the youth level, we’re working on, as I said earlier, making sure that they will find their ways into the to the workforcebecause they stand from the evaluation we’ve done so far to be the hardest hit. And for the longest after the outbreak in that respect. And so we want to make sure that getting them into the workforce really pays attention to those in the youth population for whom there are other hurdles, be they race-based, socioeconomic-based. They’ll need the most vigorous leg up to get back into a post-COVID-19 workforce.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:57:49] Thank you so much Councillor Carroll. And I’ll go to Councillor Akapo.


Kemi Akapo [00:57:55] Thank you. Yes. So I would echo what the three previous councillors have said. Another thing that we released I will be focusing on as well is our budget. So we started budget deliberations. And, as I’m sure everyone knows, it’s an arduous process in this next budget and for the next couple years is going to be really tough. So what can we do with our budget to really focus on the areas that are hardest hit? For me. Definitely housing is going to be one of them and transit for sure. We’ve already started seeing, you know, sort of a push or like well we need transit and it’s, yes 100 percent we do and you need to invest more. Yeah, definitely. Definitely lobbying our federal and provincial partners to say we need the funds to do that because can we cannot rest all of this on the backs of our other constituents.


Arielle Kayabaga [00:58:46] Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Councillor Kapo, Carroll, Ch’ng and Bortolin, for joining me to this conversation today. And to our attendees, if you’re still watching, I invite you to join the rest of today’s tour with the next stop beginning in 30 minutes on the Prairie and the north. And you can find more details at I also would like to invite you to tune in on Monday at noon, Eastern Time, to hear the moderators speak with each other about what they learned today. On behalf of the Canadian Urban Institute, I want to thank you for participating and have a great day. Thank you for your patience as well as we’re a little over. Thank you so much for this conversation. Take care. Bye, guys.


Full Audience
Chatroom Transcript

Note to reader: Chat comments have been edited for ease of readability. The text has not been edited for spelling or grammar. For questions or concerns, please contact with “Chat Comments” in the subject lin

From Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at

00:18:45 Canadian Urban Institute: Folks, please change your chat settings to “all panelists and attendees” so everyone can see your comments.
00:21:22 Laurel Davies Snyder: Hello from London, ON
00:21:31 Ryan St-Jean: thank you
00:21:34 Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Please visit to read the full report COVID Signpost 100 and to see details on the rest of today’s panels.
00:22:00 Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Today’s panel:

Arielle Kayabaga –
Kemi Akapo –
Rino Bortolin –
Shelly Carroll –
Shelby Ch’ng –
00:22:03 Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at
00:23:06 Canadian Urban Institute: Keep the conversation going #covid100 @canurb
00:23:14 Kate Graham: City Councillors have worked very hard during this crisis! Thanks to all five of you for the work you do for your cities. Excited to learn from you today.
00:24:23 Ryan St-Jean: try toggling the video off
00:24:27 Ryan St-Jean: or go mobile
00:25:41 Ryan St-Jean: @marcGarneau @elonmusk
00:30:31 Ryan St-Jean: I could buy 20 dollar store solar-powered lights and light up a multi-use path, I really just need a permit
00:34:16 Ryan St-Jean: is the Japanese micro-hotel model a bad idea?
00:35:23 J. Scott: One easy way for the Federal Government to access funds for the recovery (water clean up on reserves, health and housing just for a start!) and to reduce the huge hidden emissions of the military, would be the immediate scrapping of contributions to NATO that total $32.7 billion — and counting — as described in the 2017 defence policy p. 43: (this will go up with supplementary estimates every year. It states that a gob smacking $553B will be spent on the military over the next 20 years but this will actually be much higher with supplementary estimates.) This expenditure seems particularly egregious given the long-standing and enormous level of long unfunded needs still to be met within Canada itself.
00:35:43 Abby S: I’m not sure what “semi-racist
means Councillor Bortolin…it is important to call it what it is.
00:43:54 Ryan St-Jean: sorry, the micro hotel comment wasn’t a joke
00:44:06 Ryan St-Jean: I will step out
00:44:48 Ryan St-Jean: and for previous webinars, Greenland does exchange bottles of alcohol with scientists
00:46:50 Melinda Munro: Important to call out social issues as important to city planning during COVID but in general, @councillor Bortolin
00:48:44 Emily Wall, CUI Staff: We’ve compiled 100 Actions pulled from our CityTalk series – check them out on
00:48:46 Rino Bortolin: The semi racist comment was just saying that there have been all types of comments ranging from outright racist, to passive racism, to not blaming tied to race at all. Racism is there but its also just an issue of finger pointing whether it be because of race or not
00:49:51 J. Scott: The Migrant Workers Alliance for Change is calling for three simple demands from Ontario to contain and mitigate the crisis: – Suspend work at COVID-19 farms. – Ensure income for all. – Ensure proper health & safety.
00:51:06 J. Scott: Thanks Councillor Ch’ng for bringing in that white throated sparrow to serenade us!
00:51:24 allison ashcroft: BC Spotlight today is focused on dual emergencies of homelessness and overdose deaths. tune in at 5pm EST
00:55:30 J. Scott: The emptying of work sites will also mean a loss of tax revenues.
00:56:58 Madelyn Webb: At the community level.. are cities looking at how to continue the resident mobilization and leadership that we see during COVID. Madelyn Webb CREW Toronto @crewtoronto
00:57:39 Alan McNair: June 18/20 Press Release Please share: Local Alliance Calls on Local Governments for a Green and Just Recovery 35 organizations join in a broad alliance to create more just, green and healthy communities across Simcoe County Barrie – Today, over 30 organizations and businesses from across Simcoe County have allied to send a message to local municipalities, provincial and federal politicians – focus on a green and just recovery for the region. This alliance, known as Just Recovery Simcoe, is keenly aware how current issues such as COVID, systemic racism and climate change are highlighting the inherent weaknesses in how we make decisions, how we spend tax dollars and how we build our communities. Their core belief is that a healthy community is one that is equitable, environmentally friendly and seeks to provide strong places to live and work for all. Media Contact: Margaret Prophet Simcoe County Greenbelt Coalition 705-718-1383
00:57:58 Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Please help CUI improve its CityTalk programming with a short survey –
00:58:04 Abby S: The opioid epidemic is not confined to BC as we all know. Guelph has a huge problem along with many other communities. How to address in the context of COVID recovery and rebuild is something that must be included in all plans. This population has been forgotten and neglected.
01:00:26 Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at
01:01:08 J. Scott: Since this webinar is taking place in London, are there conversations happening with the city’s mayor and council about conversion away from the construction of war machinery being built at the General Dynamics plant that’s building the LAVs going to Saudi Arabia to annihilate the country and citizens of Yemen?
01:01:41 Canadian Urban Institute: Keep the conversation going #covid100 @canurb
01:02:09 Madelyn Webb: Agree re Green Recovery. Climate issues, emergency preparedness and resiliency at the community level are priorities.
01:07:04 Abby S: It is up to the LTC facilities to change their behaviour. It is unconscionable
01:07:35 Melinda Munro: Loving Councillor Carroll’s analysis of the problems with teh staffing models of LTC (and frankly lots of other businesses) creating problems. Not the fault of the women workers, its the fault of businesses that won’t apy benefits or decent wages.
01:07:46 J. Scott: The province must step up to improve this situation of LTCs through better wages for workers so they don’t have to have multiple jobs, etc.! Toronto is not solely responsible. We must demand this of Ontario!
01:07:55 Anneke Smit: Windsor City Council, to its credit, passed an ambitious climate plan during COVID. Councillor Bortolin was a champion of this plan. The challenge will be in ensuring that the funding priorities are there to implement it. There are big intersections with equity considerations there too – transit for example.
01:07:56 Melinda Munro: Some municipalities do the same thing by making jobs that should be permanent into temporary casual jobs to save tax dollars.
01:08:34 J. Scott: Thank you Councillor Carroll!
01:10:24 J. Scott: LTC reform is a template for all of recovery plans. Every service should be public!
01:12:16 David Crenna: Excellent point about thinking further down the road several steps in advance!
01:13:34 allison ashcroft: decisions made on the fly aren’t mitigated by who votes. voting doesn’t mean you have influence. there are other routes and circumventions particularly during emergency. these marginalized groups need to have greater positions in govt and inclusion in decisionmaking for influence
01:15:29 J. Scott: Thank you everyone! Great conversation. Let’s Build Back Better!
01:16:21 Stephen Smith: Thank you. Lot’s of work to do
01:16:41 Anneke Smit: Thank you all so much for this conversation!
01:17:00 Diana Idibe: Thank you everyone!
01:17:02 J. Scott: I hope to see you all at the next webinar today and next week.
01:17:08 Graham Wilson: Thank you everyone