Mary Rowe Hi, good morning… thank you for joining us for our 6th broadcast of CityTalks. So joining us from New York City is Jeffrey Hebert, who is with HRNA and was the previous chief resilience officer for New Orleans. I think you were the first chief resilience officer, as I recall. Elliott Cappell, who is was also a former chief resilience officer. You’re going to have a little club, you guys. Formerly with the City of Toronto who is now with WSP. Laurian Farrell, who is a Torontonian. We’re going to claim you forever. Laurian, although now living in New York City with the Global Resilient City Network, which is the sort of successor to the 100 Resilience Cities. Allison Ashcroft who is our beloved partner in Victoria. And as I suggested, we have partners for this broadcast, which include Allison’s organization that she leads, the Canadian Urban Sustainability Practitioners Network. We also have Evergreen and Future Cities and the Canadian Urban Resilience Accelerator as part of the organizations that were helping us put this session together who are carrying on the work as we go. So these are the big four that we’ve got with us this morning. And very pleased to have you be part of this conversation with us at this particularly challenging time. And I just got to say that I am here in Toronto and a hailstorm blitzed through Toronto about that is my part of Toronto about five minutes ago. So if you’re further east than me, you’re going to get it next. And its part of the microclimates that we’re observing and the changes. Who knows what’s next. And Jeff, I want to go to you first. I think I’ve known you the longest. You and I were in New Orleans together after Katrina. And so I want to just start with each person and ask them to give us two minutes on – what are you seeing? What are you observing in terms of your practice as a resilience and sustainability practitioner? Over to you. Jeff Hebert.

Jeff Hebert Thanks, Mary Ann. Thanks, everyone. You know, it’s interesting, as Mary said, you know, we work together in New Orleans after Katrina. I was in New York during 9/11 and then the Hurricane Sandy, Harvey, Maria, wildfires in the West and in Australia. And now we have Covid19. And I think what’s very different, what we’re all grappling with that’s very different about this is that this is a much different protracted emergency response phase. It’s not sort of a shock like a hurricane or a tornado or those sorts of events. This is very different because it’s much more protracted. And the response phase is going to go on for some time, and particularly here in the US, depending on what the federal government and the state go. Yeah. I was just going to say to that, I mean, one of the things that that we learned, Mary and you know this as much as anybody else is, you know, there are things like social cohesion and other sort of skills that communities can build that sort of take you through Any one of these. Right. And I think, as Lauren was saying before, I think, you know, the ability to be resilient is to be resilient from sort of anything that comes your way. And that sounds sort of nebulous and esoteric, but that’s actually the truth. Right. So if you’re building capacity, I’m taking sort of an example from Melbourne, Australia. If you’re building capacity in the system to protect vulnerable elderly populations with food delivery services to them and other things. One of the things that they did in Melbourne is check on those people as you’re delivering food to understand if they have proper cooling for when a heat wave comes. Right. And so you’re building those capacities in those systems in many different ways. And what we also know is that those communities who have the capacity to recover because of social cohesion and [2.6s] other things can weather many different types of shocks. Right.

Mary Rowe But what we didn’t anticipate is that you couldn’t actually physically get together. And as you just suggested. I mean, who thought? Who knew? I mean, of all the plans around the country and around in the hundreds points of these networks. And also, Alison, in terms of crisis, is there a particular community that anticipated specifically this kind of pandemic where people would have to be physically separated? Was there is there anybody that had the jump on this and knew that this might be coming?

Laurian Farrell Well, I can speak to cities in the global network. I haven’t seen anything that was specifically about social or physical distancing, really. There were a number of cities that did identify disease outbreak, a pandemic epidemic. And that’s just that the beauty of this type of planning is holistic, resilient planning is that it can be adapted. So, no, we didn’t necessarily anticipate everyone needs to say stay two meters. But the ability to adapt quickly to a new unknown shock and stress is what resilience is all about. And a lot of people working in the cities to quickly adapt plans that they already had in place to face this.

Mary Rowe But it is interesting. I mean, in that way, we have the technology. I mean, those of us that we’re involved with Katrina, there was no social media like this. There was. Right. Physically going to meetings. And you were doing it the old fashioned way, pounding the pavement. In fact, couple of webinars ago, we had someone saying we have to go back to good old analog systems, calling people on the phone. You know, bulletin boards, good old-fashioned ways of doing it. So, I mean, at least we have connectivity that way, but not equally distributed connectivity. Let’s move now to the question of money. And here’s a question I have for all of you. I think that each of your work is dependent on capital, capital. It has historically [that a lot of resilience plans and sustainability work is engaged in building infrastructure and spending capital dollars. Now we’re looking at a situation where a lot of that capital money is probably going to get redeployed to just keeping lights on in operations. So is that what you were getting at, Alison? Some concern that maybe some of these projects are going to get slowed or shelved or do you think.

Allison Ashcroft Yeah. I’m sorry, I’m just thinking of how to respond to that. I mean, I just want to say one thing to the last point, which is that, you know, only with only in Canada do Calgary, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have did they have the luxury of having chief resilience officers. Right. The majority of cities across that did not have that funding from hundred Resilient cities, and those brains embedded in their city manager’s office. So for the most part, the other cities have at best adaptation plans, climate change adaptation plans, which for the most part really looked in the early days  those plans, which, you know ICLEI has been in the center of helping cities produce those plans in the early days. Those were really about hard solutions, looking at how to respond with dikes. And they weren’t people centered in the sense that they weren’t looking at some of those social cohesion solutions that Laurian and Jeff were just talking about. So I just want to make. I mean, I think there is a sense that they’ve morphed. So it continues to work with those cities in Canada and they have standard equity in those in as those plans are adapting as their plans are evolving now. But historically, I think that was the big gap, is that people we weren’t looking at the strength and the resilience that could come from people. We were looking at it to come from the outside with hardscape for the most part. So financially, I mean, I think I think the issue is that, you know, we have municipalities have already know municipalities are in Canada are highly reliant on property tax revenue. That’s all they’ve basically got. And use your usual fee. Well, user fees are at best cost recovery.  I mean, you know, you might have user fees on transit that people are talking about right now. TransLink printing 75 million a month. Toronto. Sixty five million a week or something like that. But those are those aren’t even cost recovery. Right. We’re still subsidizing those services heavily with property taxes and other and other another revenue sources from senior levels of government. All right. So really the only thing to cover traditional core service has been property tax revenues and maybe a little bit of parking revenues for some of our urban centers. So we’ve already seen that those property tax revenues and the pressure to keep those increases low because of affordability issues in our cities s already broken. Right. Like, I mean, we aren’t covering what needs what core services and discretion, what’s considered discretionary services like climate action and some of our social planning work. For instance, we’re not able to cover that currently with property tax revenues.  And so. We’re doing I mean, cities are doing their best and they’re doing amazing job, don’t get me wrong, but they are at capacity. And so when you throw something like Covid on top of it and you take away those user fees while they still have to provide the essential services of transit and others, and then you add another nine hundred thirty thousand a month Ottawa spending just in increased costs for solid waste, long term care and emergency response. They don’t look the cash flows don’t exist for that. And they have reserves. But those reserves are for infrastructure that is beyond the need for renewal and new infrastructure that is needed. So you know… what I could say I like out of this is that it’s forcing a conversation that we’ve been pushing down the road for a really long time. And a new operating model and a new model for funding cities and these services is required because the right place for these actions to take place is local. But the funding sources and the authorities that municipalities have are insufficient. [25.1s] And what we’re seeing right now just to finish is a beautiful amount of collaboration across all levels of government as well as in our communities with our frontline NGOs who have also suffered from being highly responsible for a huge vulnerable group in our cities and maintaining their maintaining their livelihood without certainty and stability of funding. And I think we’re seeing now how important those frontline organizations are and how important it is to provide them with stability and certainty so they can do the work that they’re there to do and not be out looking for funding every single year.

Elliott Cappell So I just want to respond to one of the questions that you asked. There you said, you know, are you sort of thread the needle that, you know, we have these plans. Are the projects going to be shelved? And I would say that the answer is no. What we’re seeing in reality is that municipalities is using something called operating from capital, which is not really what they’re supposed to do. Right. Right. They’re taking money from capital budgets, which are medically separated and they’re subsidizing operating. That’s, of course, quite risky in normal times, which is why we don’t do it. I would say its probably much less risky right now because the cities unquestionably are going to get bailed out. get those that have to get bailed out. There’s no there’s no other option really in the Canadian context. And then so the capital reserves will be lower. But I don’t think that will result in shelved projects at all. I think that what we’re going to see is a very significant infrastructure focused stimulus that’s going to come. And anyone who has completed those plans, who has projects ready like a like a tower renewal project in Toronto or a home energy loan program or the low carbon cities program or things like that, that can be vehicles for the federal government to provide funding to cities are actually going to be in a very good place. And just very quickly to respond to Laurine’s question or point, rather, that, you know, we’re seeing some restrictions relaxed and so on. I think that’s correct. But one of the advantages that we have in Canada is that Infrastructure Canada has provided significant leadership with the climate lens assessment. And there is no I don’t think there is a chance and maybe I’ll be embarrassed. This is going be recorded later on. But I don’t think there is a chance that Minister McKenna, who was previously the environment minister, is going to relax the climate lens assessment requirement. So I think that we are actually in to see GHG assessments and resilience assessments done of all of those projects that are funded.

Mary Rowe You know, we spoke radically different at Jackson and negative taught me a lot about how they the parents resilience for a couple of decades since it was formed. And they talk about multi solving this notion that my simple language of this was that you never you never want to make an investment that only delivers one benefit that you have to do something that not only bazillions, but increases livability. And this lens is you know, this lends to this this this protocol that’s been in place. Are there other kinds of safeguards that we think we should be picking for now? I mean, I hear you, Laurian, and about is the urgency. The good thing is that there is going to be stimulus money. ]The bad thing about that and we know that we know this from our workers is that, you know, the work of Jane Jacobs around cataclysmic money – money like there is a problem when a lot of money comes flooding in.  You can just not experienced that in New Orleans. It can cause a lot of problems if too much comes in. And then there’s urgency not only to get things happening, but also to get people back to work. So are there particular kinds of policy directions or principles that the four of you are mulling around in your head that need to start being put out into the practice that people understand? Here are the four things that we have to be cognizant of as we plan and make investments. Jeff you’re nodding your head. Yeah.

Jeff Hebert Yeah. I was just going to say building off of Elliot’s comment. I mean, I think there is a huge concern that budgetarily across many cities in the U.S., many of our clients, about how to continue to move their projects forward. And you’ll see in the media a lot of conversations about the municipal bond market and what’s trying to sort of loosen up there to make sure that that doesn’t completely collapse for capital projects. But what I’ve seen happen is not necessarily a retraction, but actually really thinking creatively about how to get projects funded, which frankly are making them think a little bit more systematically about the types of funding that will likely be available and is already being made available. So we’ve been tracking all of the federal stimulus moneys, all the packages, all of the all of the different sort of sources and understanding the regulations around each of them, because I think it’s going to be more of a stacking of funds or looking at different types of programs to fund a project to move it forward. And I think a lot of cities, particularly those who have had sort of a lot of strategy work on the front end, are really trying to move that forward. Still a little cautiously, because not all of it is sort of wrapped up right now about what it’s what these packages are actually going to look like. But as Elliot said, I think there’s a strong focus on infrastructure investment from stimulus. And I think a lot of the cities I’m thinking of, New York and Miami and others who have done a lot of this work are trying to align those projects to that funding in order to move those projects forward. I would say that the biggest thing that I’ve been thinking about and we’ve been advising our clients is that this is the opportunity to make a different choice right in recovery. You can get recovery funds, as you said, Mary, come in and you want to deploy it, right. It’s about how fast you can get it out there, regardless of really good program design. This is the opportunity to take a leadership stance and create a program design that is actually transformational for the communities that need it most. And transformational around climate and not just a business as usual case to move it forward.

Mary Rowe Now, can we do it quickly enough? That’s the question.

Jeff Hebert We can. I think we have. I think we can. There’s been a lot of work done over the past decade. I think many cities have strategies in place, even if they don’t have specific resilience strategies. Most of them have been thinking about this, the component organization USDN in the United States. Sustainability directors, networking. All these organizations have been doing this work. It’s about positioning those ideas to the funding that’s going to be available and not missing this opportunity to do so.

Mary Rowe Alison’s CUSP is a Canadian version of the USD and they were not the sister organizations. And you want to say something else about this?

Allison Ashcroft Well, I was just because they were actually the partners. We’re the Canadian partner network to us. And so that members of the U.S. DN are caucus members and that’s where we formed out of.

Mary Rowe Allison, do you think we’re going to make a shift? Do you think that this is a moment for the climate community that you can actually move away from mitigation, adaptation or whatever it is? Is this a moment, too? Is this a crisis that you don’t want to waste? It could actually be kind of learning.

Allison Ashcroft You know, there’s some terrible opportunities to be taken here. I think for sure. And I think, you know, to Jeff’s point, you know, this is not – there’s not a technological problem that we’ve been having. It’s structural and relational. [9.9s] And what we seen in the last month is that we can shift those structures and we can we can we can build those relationships quickly and we can tap into the relationships that already exist. So there are a lot of networks at the local and national and provincial level or whatever that already exist.  And through this last month, we’ve taken advantage of those because you can’t just walk into a room and expect somebody to trust you. These networks already have that built trust. And that’s particularly true when it comes to working with your marginalized communities. And so and since we know that they are disproportionately impacted by COVID by climate change, by everything. It’s really important that we support and work with those networks that are already connected through there. [So, yeah, I think I think it’s structural is our main problem. I think it’s about power sharing, power sharing down to the local level, power sharing into our frontline communities and that we’ve already seen in the last month that we’re capable of that. And I think now, you know, CUSPS Focus has been on [climate and equity and the nexus of those two, working on energy, poverty and other things. That’s really what we’ve been focusing on the last couple of years. And so that’s great for the 17 cities we work with. But the change in people’s perception around energy, equity and affordability has been growing over the last couple of years, but it’s gone off the charts in the last month. We know that this. We know that anyone is two months’ paycheck away from needing financial support. [We don’t need to fight for universal basic income anymore. We have. We have an emergency response right now that is proving that that’s exactly how we can do it. We’ve been saying we couldn’t possibly role out a basic income program. Yeah, we can. We just did it. We did it in three days.  So we know that we can do that. And we know and I think there’s a new national value and belief that any one of us is literally two or three paychecks away from needing some financial support. And we all need to ask them why they need it. Right.

Mary Rowe You know, so as you suggest this, if nothing like a crisis to make a conversation happen, happen, you know, conversations that weren’t happening are now happening. And as you suggest, things that seem to be completely impossible. No, no, no. We’ve been able to actually find a way to do it. So I guess that’s a larger question. Do you think that we’ll be able to even at a very practical level? Are we seeing changes in urban life right now that are temporary, that, in fact, should stick? So there are lots of questions about car use, for instance. And the hardening of bike lanes. Do you. Does anybody have a sense of this? Is this something we can extract from this crisis and have them be implemented on a longer term basis? Laurian, what do you think in terms of the GRCN network?

Laurian Farrell Absolutely. I think I think we’re seeing a global pilot study some again, some of the complete three theories that cities are going to push on a broader scale. I think with Milan just today has announced that they’re converting permanently 22 kilometers of their streets to bike lanes. And then there will be a shift in what normal means for. We don’t know yet what that shift is going to be, but there will be a shift. And now was an opportunity to seize the moment to define what we want that shift to be right. And from a climate lens, from a health lens. And the two are so interconnected. Just getting back to the point about products may not be shelved just because of this crisis. I think they definitely won’t be because many of the climate actions that were being put forward by cities will actually help some of us address some of the human health issues as well. So I think we need to keep pushing, pushing forward some of the good ideas that are already out there, expertise of people that are already working in cities and in jails and define what that new normal is going to be for us and then make permanent some of these changes that we’re seeing in this really short time make the long term, I think, possible.

Mary Rowe You know, one of the problems with the concept of resilience is that nasty, bad things are resilient, too. Right. Milton Freisen just raised this in the chat. And I remember Tracie Washington in New Orleans at the Louisiana Justice Center, Jeff pushed back on you and I all the time saying all you’re using you’re using resilience as a term to give an excuse to do something bad to me again and again and again, because, gee, look how resilient I am. Or look, I previously disadvantaged people. So I I’m curious about whether we can actually get to a place where people understand that this is a positive concept and that that it’s something that now we have no excuse. But bit like what you were something else and we didn’t think we could do a basic annual income. Now we’re doing it is are we going to get to a place for people? Just agree, of course, we don’t do an investment unless it’s unless it leads to resilience. Can we get to that place?

Jeff Hebert I’ll say it quickly. I mean, I think there are from in the US context, I think there are going to be places in the US who have sort of led a lot of these conversations before that this will be the point which completely pivots them to make those decisions. Like places like California and other places? I think they’re there. I mean, there’s conversations about these types of things in New York. And then I think just given our context, there will be other parts of the United States who will do business as usual. And we will continue to see sort of a bifurcation of those that are moving forward and those that are saying who will be continue to be left behind.

Mary Rowe And you think that’s what will happen is we’re going to get I mean, if we if what are your hours spouting is a real devolution for local. And again, that’s been my experience, the two cities that are on this call. And I lived in during this track, these stresses. So I know it really does devolve that local folks have the solutions and any other resources. Do you think we’ll get to a place where some places will get with the program and some just will opt not to? And are we OK with that?

Jeff Hebert I’m not okay with it, but I think that’s the reality.

Mary Rowe Elliott, what do you think?

Elliott Cappell I was listening to what Jeff said with a lot of interest. I mean, I don’t. We’ve heard the pop, the optimistic side. I think there is also the pessimistic side when it comes to climate change around models. Right. Because a lot of our response right now and you hear it every time the province or the Fed are going to release a new model, everyone’s kind of, you know, right on the edge of their seat. And the figures that came out from Ontario, it looks like we’re going to have one quarter, the number of cases that we’re projected just a few weeks ago. So I think that, you know, one of the things that I take away from that that’s quite interesting as we think about the climate emergency for cities is that we need to make sure that we have the science right and communicate it in a way that’s actually relatable, because if we say, for example, we need to build flood and resilience to a certain level and we way, way, way over engineer it, and we can’t justify why then we’re going to have some say that these green swan is coming and they don’t come. You know, we’d have some issues that are so on the pessimistic side, I would say, you know, we shouldn’t be too carried away with our excitement about collective action. And we need to really keep our eyes on like, you know, keep our climate scientists. Just keep our focus on getting the facts right.

Mary Rowe I mean, that part is good, but there has been an appreciation that expertise actually matters. I think that at least in our jurisdictions, we don’t live in the political reality. You live in Jeff and Laurian. It’s different here, probably in a good way. But I do think they are going to be fundamental questions for us are renowned, as you suggest, Eliot. What are the priorities? So we don’t have anybody on this call from Alberta. If we did, they’d be talking about what is going to be the impact of complete collapse in the oil and gas industry. And what is that what is that going to do today? What has it already done to their economy? And what are the options for them? Is anybody done some thinking about this, about ultimately what that impact might look like? Are we all just struggling?

Jeff Hebert It’s a conversation I’ve been having with our colleague Marissa in Houston as there. They have these dual issues right now with the complete collapse of the oil economy. And also covered and also really a lot of being very nervous about the upcoming hurricane season as well as disruptions that that heat will have. So I think I think people are really trying to figure this all out. I mean, there’s a lot of economic analysis going on and on all the impacts. But for a city like Houston, which is highly dependent on the energy economy. Could this be a shift in the economy? You know, this did happen in the 1980s. And it really pivoted, Houston, to really diversify its economy a bit more than it was previously.

Mary Rowe So it’s not so much its build farm. Right. And that’s it. As more and more people are reacting so negatively to density. Are we going to see now more pressure to de densify? And what are the environmental implications? I would think that the climate communities be concerned about that. Allison, are you going to go back to car culture?

Allison Ashcroft Well, you know, I mean. Well, I hope not. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t think so. I don’t know why a car culture. I mean. Well, we have. Well, we have a white flight from the cities out to the suburbs like we did in the 80s in Detroit and other places. No, I don’t think so. I think I think we know better than that. I think our cities deliver more than that. We [need to make sure that the level of service that we’re able to provide in cities is high, it’s equitable and it’s affordable. And I think if we’re doing those things, then, you know, cities are a great place to live, to raise families and to run businesses. [So, you know, that’s I think you know, I think in the past with our climate work, you know, collectively it’s been more focused on the on the greenhouse gas reduction side, on the mitigation side than adaptation. I think, you know, we the funding has also been so I think we need to be looking at resilience now as the goal we’re looking for. We’re looking for a just recovery here into a regenerative economy that builds resilient communities and resilient community in a rural area is a different than a resilient community in an urban area. And as such, our programs, funding programs can’t be one size fits all. [So with the connection I see between covid and climate change is, you know, in covid situation in the rural areas, it’s about access. It’s about access to health care, it’s about access to broadband. That is the inequity and the injustice that they’re experiencing right now. And so when it comes to our greenhouse gas or climate change, you know, it’s around it is around it building adaptation and, you know, adapt, making those communities adaptable. But then it’s around access still there, too. It’s around access to clean and affordable energy. And in northern and remote communities, it’s also around energy justice is around that right to self-determination by indigenous people to have independent power production so they can, you know, meet their reconciliation. Self-determination goes through well below energy power production. So, again, in rural areas, it’s about access, just as it is here around health care and broadband. Why would we be putting the same amount of dollars in seeking greenhouse gas reductions in rural areas when we know that the consumption, the buildings, the transportation or in urban areas, if we’re seeking greenhouse gas reductions to meet those climate targets, that funding needs to go to the larger cities where the people are and where the consumption and greenhouse gas generation exists. That’s not to say that there isn’t funding that needs to go into rural areas, but we need to think about what we’re doing in rural areas and what goals. And it’s around access, access to health care, access to clean and affordable energy, access to broadband.

Mary Rowe There are in the chatbox, people are putting up ideas and existing programs. And again, just to remind people in the chatbox that will the resources that you post here will make sure circulated will put them in the posting. Let me put this online as well. Who else just wanted to jump in?

Jeff Hebert Just one, one of the things that I’ve been tracking are all of the photographs and things of cities that are experiencing amazing days because of low emissions and freedom of movement and all these other things. And just how wonderful that’s been. And I’m what one of the things I’ve been wondering and Allison, this is maybe a question for you, but I’m wondering how that will impact sort of, you know, the populace like it is something that we can actually see now, like this huge this this this shock has allowed us to see something in real time that many of us have been talking about. And will that have sort of a psychological impact on the way the average person views climate change, which has been sort of a distant thing for a lot of people. But the reaction to actually seeing it happen in real time may have some sort of transformative impact on the way we think about. It’s just it’s amazing to see what has happened in such a short period of time.

Mary Rowe Yeah. And is there some way for that to be done and still maintain social distancing? Right. I’m agreeing with you because does it not. Does it have to be. Well, if we all stay at home all the time. The climate will do OK. Well, that’s probably not sustainable. Elliot, you were trying to jump in.

Elliott Cappell Well, there’s just one thing from Allison’s list of things. In the interim urban rule that we miss in this conversation is that everyone experiences resilience at home. And we haven’t talked about homes. You know, the Toronto Resilient Strategy,  basically our number one and number two recommendations were that we needed to improve people’s resilience at home and in the perpetrators. So that seems like really great recommendation at this point. We’re seeing, you know, buildings are the number one or number two source of emissions in most Canadian cities. And we’re seeing a big shift from commercial real estate value to home value as people go to start working from home more normal. [26.4s] So that’s a I think what we’re one thing that we haven’t talked about is that opportunity to that’s called like tower renewal or home energy loan programs, broadband at home. Water for northern communities. So really, that whole resilience angle is a principle that we need to think about when we when we look at recovery.

Mary Rowe and it lets , it gives people a reference point, it’s easier to wrap your head around it, right? Laurian?

Laurian Farrell Yeah. I’m trying to get in on that truth 100 percent. I think that there is, so going back to my thinking around systems. People tend to forget about their individual impact and look to the cities, to the governments to solve a lot of problems. And so a hundred percent, I agree with Eliot. We also as individuals need to look at what we can do, in our own lives. Look how hard it is to get people to prepare a 72 hour emergency kits just to be responsible for their own food and water for three days because the government may not be able to the emergency management responders may not be able to get to them because of the tax on resources.  The this is beautiful experience. We’re having a lower pollution. Is it going to be enough to change people’s mindsets, to take permanent action? And this is where I feel like we need to we need all the support from the anthropologists and the sociologists to figure out how do we capture this feeling that people have today and translate that into a more permanent commitment to individual actions.  And what are we all willing to do to get to this desired outcome besides just meeting our MP that I and our congressman and say, hey, we need to do better? What are you going to do? What are we going to demand of them to do better?

Mary Rowe You know, you started when you started law and you said. Response to you said there’s sort of a phasing that we’re going through. Right. Stabilization and things. I mean, do you think that in this, I don’t know that when we get beyond stabilization, will we be able to extract the things that actually worked well that we want in our own lives? Gee, I think was good not to go shopping so frequent or whatever it was, you know? How do you how will people how to how can we remind people? Actually, there were good things about this, not just trauma.

Laurian Farrell many, many people will change their behaviors because of this. Many people will not. As Jeff said, the same thing with cities. Many cities will use this as an inflection of people point to do better. And many will revert back to their old comfort zones. And unfortunately, we’re living in a system that has been built on decades and decades, hundreds of years of decisions that are very hard to step back from. You know, we were so embedded in these old decisions that have been made for society. This is why we have equity issues. This is why we have the current economic system that we live in. This is why we have the energy system that we live in because of decisions that we’ve made. We need to step back to walk back some of those decisions to get to that outcome. It’s a challenge. And so I think it’s going to take all of the disciplines working together to figure out how to address that challenge.  But that’s essentially what we do. So the answer for you, as Mary, is I think some of us will, but we’ve got a long way to go. We have a long way to go to overcome that barrier. And the other thing I wanted to mention is that, you know, Elliott spoke about the models and the science. We would like to believe that people are interested in and trusting of the science now finally. Right. But the models can only get us so far because models are trying to simulate a real life system. How are we going to how are we going to accurately model climate change when we don’t really even understand all the parameters that go into it? So the models give us a guide. And they don’t give us the solutions. But we need to decide another main decision of what systems we want to live within. And then we need to be ready to adapt to the outcomes of those of those solutions. And we give ourselves the best fighting chance we can pick the best. We decide what our risk tolerance is and we move forward. But it starts with the models. But I don’t think the models are the be all and end all. And so I think of a culture we started to put up these statistics and models and then we even just the weatherman look at how we like to react to that in the weather of the culture. We’ve done that. So we need to start rethinking how we accept data as well and how we use our data.

Mary Rowe Spoken like a true engineer. I want to go to Allison first Go ahead.

Allison Ashcroft I just wanted to say, you know, I think, you know, we talk about needing some shovel ready plans right now for when the money comes out. And, you know, we what we know is we have, you know, my 17 cities, 14 declared climate emergencies. All of them have very new climate plans. They know what they need. They have they know what they’re six big moves are there. They’re game changers are don’t find projects, fun strategies funded down to the city level. Let them implement those strategies over multiple years. And we know we have 14 coal-fired power plants. We know that they need to be offline by twenty nine. Let’s accelerate that. Let’s get the money into those communities that we know we need ubiquitous and equitable networks of an even charging stations. Those don’t need to be. We’re not going to get a house to install. He’d be charging stations and park aides and parking lots in the public realm. Let’s get that money out there. Let’s do that. And with all of those capital dollars needs to come the recognition that there’s people and capacity required to deliver them. Well, and in particular, if we want to deliver them intentionally to meet these other goals and to make sure that they’re delivered equitably, inclusively to all so that no one gets left behind literally.

Jeff Hebert Yeah. Just really quickly in its perfect building off of what Allison said and really going back to what Eliot said.  One of the things that’s very practical about what they both said is that a lot of those programs already exist at the federal level, both in Canada and the US, and they just need more funding. That’s a very practical thing to advocate for. They’ve likely already existed. They just have a pittance of funds as opposed to what they actually need. And if we can push more funds into those types of programs, particularly around home resilience, as Elliott says, those are programs that already exist. They just need more money

Allison Ashcroft and they need to be more streamlined. We need to streamline those and deliver them both down without project by project application.

Mary Rowe Yeah. You know, we’re going to wrap here and I’m just going to say a couple things. One is that, you know, it’s a very different world than it was 15 years ago with both Jeff Hebert and I were living in New Orleans. And we started talking about resilience in people when. Huh? The only people that knew what resilience was were psychologists because it was used in psychodynamic understandings of individual resilience. And now, fifteen years later, it’s a term that at least people understand the points that all of you’ve been raising. We’ve laid some tracks here. We have some muscle memory. You guys have been working in these fields diligently, creating networks, connecting expertise with practitioners on the ground, seeing if you can ladder that up to good policy. You’ve been at it for a long time. Now is our moment to see if we can really go full throttle and use the use those muscles we’ve been training and see we can join them up at the last thing. I just want to suggest as if this notion of shovel ready, this is a broad concept that everybody gets shovel ready. I’d love us to come up with a term that suggests that we as human beings are ready and are aware it may not be shovel ready. Is resilience ready? Is it the new normal ready that we understand that we’re all going to change now and move into a different kind of understanding of our relationship, the natural environment to each other?

Mary Rowe So I want to thank everybody for coming on the call and being part of this. We’ll keep the chat archived, the chat, as I suggested. Hopefully we’ll put a video up of what these folks have been talking about. The conversation continues briefly on this chat. A chat function will stay alive for a few minutes if you want to keep exchanging thoughts chatters. Thanks for all your comments. And we’ll posted, as I suggested, on canurb.org.

12:06:32          From Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Today’s panel:

Allison Ashcroft – https://cuspnetwork.ca

Elliott Cappell – https://twitter.com/ellcappell

Laurian Farrell – https://twitter.com/laurianf

Jeff Hebert – https://twitter.com/jeffphebert

12:06:54          From John Jung: Great topic- so how do you respond to both COVID19 and Climate Change challenges simultaneously?

12:07:00          From Lisa Cavicchia, CUI Staff: If you’re tweeting — please use @canurb and #citytalk

12:07:54          From Lanrick Bennett to All panelists: Thanks ladies and gents. #TransformTO live in the background in Toronto. Looking forward to this chat

12:09:32          From Gaby Kalapos to All panelists: thanks so much for the CUI resources like City Watch etc. they are great! Just wanted to let people know about a Clean Air Council effort to try and crowd source a climate lens to Municipal COVID Response and Recovery Plans. More information is available at: https://cleanairpartnership.org/cac/meetings/planning-for-covid-and-climate/

12:10:18          From Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Just a reminder to please set your chat function to “all panelists and attendees” so that everyone can see your comments.

12:15:43          From Annie Bérubé to All panelists: Which organizations will be sending policy recommendations to provincial and/or federal governments to influence economic stimulus recovery spending in Canada Post-COVID?

12:17:02          From Milton Friesen: I’ve been trying to take stock of the pre-existing conditions vs what will evolve re. our social dynamics and structures. I wrote a short oped here for the Canadian Science Policy Centre that may be of interest. It’s a challenge that has come up in different ways in these sessions: https://sciencepolicy.ca/news/growing-resilience-through-crisis-building-community-run

12:17:08          From lester brown to All panelists: Many cities, including Toronto, have signed on as a District 2030 City. Considering the fact that New York is a leader in that initiative, what hopes do we have for that project.

12:18:47          From David MacLeod to All panelists: In Toronto we are seeking COVID recovery actions synergistic with climate objectives. can the panelists provide some ideas?

12:18:48          From Canadian Urban Institute: Just a reminder to new joiners to please change your chat settings to “All panelists and attendees” so we can all share in the conversation. Thanks!

12:19:29          From David MacLeod: In Toronto we are seeking COVID recovery actions synergistic with climate objectives. can the panelists provide some ideas?

12:19:53          From lester brown: Repeating as went out only to panelists. What is hope for District 2030 initiative/ Being answered by Laurian.

12:20:28          From Rita Bijons to All panelists: Are you able to save the chat in addition to the recording of the webinar? Thank you!

12:20:48          From Canadian Urban Institute: Yes, Rita, we are saving the chat.

12:21:59          From Laurel Phillips: Any thoughts on how the extremely low price of oil is going to affect the climate change movement? I worry that this will discourage companies from seeking alternatives.

12:24:34          From Emma Nelson: Resiliency can be baked into all facets of life if we change the system we live under. When we live in a fundamentally unsustainable system, every aspect of life under that system will be unsustainable.

12:26:01          From Lisa Cavicchia, CUI Staff: Asian cities due to SARs

12:26:14          From paula gallo to All panelists: it’s interesting because this scenario was anticipated in fiction novels.

12:28:49          From Robert Godfrey: In some ways, COVID is a solidarity building experience (locally and globally). How can we apply this deeper sense of connection to address the climate challenge in our cities?

12:28:52          From Aida Nciri to All panelists: One of the major arguments put forward for years to explain climate action is that people are not ready to change their way of living (“our way of life is not negotiable”). COVID-19 seems to show that people are ready to make huge sacrifice when decision-makers take an issue seriously and put it at the top of the agenda. At the same time, COVID-19 is perceived as a concrete, short terms risk, unlike CC, which is perceived as more abstract, and far. Despite this difference in perception, how can we leverage the lessons learned that people are ready to drastically change their way of living? In the case of CC, it seems that the sacrifice will be even lower, because social interactions will still remain.

12:30:05          From Stephen Cremin-Endes: I am working on food distrubtion in New Haven and really appreciate the forward thinking of panelist to ask people “if they are ready for hot weather”. We will discuss this at our next meeting. Thank you,

12:30:11          From Abhilash Kantamneni to All panelists: Will resilience emerge as an increasingly important concept in urban planning and will that increase municipal capacity and appetite for climate adaptation? Will this lead to cities shift focus, priorities and resources from climate mitigation towards adaptation?

12:30:40          From John Jung: Taiwan has been one of the countries that prepared for the next pandemic. I was there in February and witnessed these first hand

12:31:55          From John Jung: But Taiwan is outside of the WHO due to China’s political influence. Climate Change and pandemic are global disruptors that cannot be politicized

12:32:25          From Ohi Izirein to All panelists: Preparations for

12:32:39          From kendall christiansen: re Taiwan: see article in March 16 issue of Foreignpolicy.com re its prep, by Toronto-based Miriam Shuchman

12:32:55          From Abigail Slater: How will communities even begin to respond to natural disasters in the era of social distancing? This is a terrifying thought.

12:34:01          From Jeff Frank: The Guardian today: Milan announces ambitious scheme to reduce car use after lockdown”

12:34:40          From John Jung: Are you seeing cities in other countries that have good models that we could look at? Or are our North American best practices among the best?

12:35:31          From Abigail Slater: The ability/capicity to absorb funding can be an issue in the nfp sector.

12:35:32          From Robert Godfrey: As panelists suggest, increasing community resilience via social cohesion can improve ability to respond and recover to a variety of disturbances. However, it’s important to consider the ways in which climate change and COVID are different. The magnitude and urgency of the COVID response is something climate activists can only dream of, perhaps attributable to the immediacy and speed of the threat (vs. CC). Can the panelists comment on these differences? Is it sensible to hope that people can respond similarly to CC or is it intrinsically more difficult?

12:37:27          From Abigail Slater: @robert Yes…and while we see how the impact of social distancing and business shutdown have affected emissions, how will this be translated post Covid? I see Milan…but will everyone jump at the chance to go back into their cars, or will they remain working less and walking more…which of course is a privilege not afforded to everyone.

12:38:20          From Abigail Slater: And how will public transit respond if/when some kind of social distancing remains within the transit system.

12:38:23          From Abigail Slater: ?

12:39:08          From Abigail Slater: making it even less accessible for those who rely on it.?

12:40:13          From Ramsha Ahmed to All panelists: To re-boost the economy their is an opportunity to invest in low carbon and sustainable solutions. How can we encourage this within our cities? What would those solutions look like which would have long-term benefits?

12:42:43          From Cynthia Wilkey to All panelists: How can the pressures from businesses large and small for support to return to business as usual play out against the idea of a transformative recovery? That did not happen after the 2008 financial crisis. How can we ensure a different outcome in 2020/21?

12:42:52          From Robert Godfrey: How concerned are you that public health and pandemic readiness will actually detract from climate mitigation and adaptation efforts? Synergies may exist, but plenty of trade-offs too. Hopefully not too cynical to suggest that allocation of money, time, and attention *can* be zero-sum. How do we prioritize?

12:42:54          From Milton Friesen: I hear a hinting at the downside of resilience in comments and above chat comments – resilience in the form of systems that we don’t want (or that are not effective in ways we need) but which persist. Like social capital (which can be beneficial or harmful depending on context), resilience can mean unhealthy habits persist, they resist change. I’d be interested in panelists reflections on this directly.

12:43:02          From James Glave: On the other hand, her in B.C. the transit authority is speaking of the need to “dismantle” our renowned system, making it “unrecognizable.” Close a lane to traffic, but unless you can get to work on a bike or on foot, there are massive equity implications here.

12:43:46          From derek chadbourne: it is disappointing that Toronto city council has refused to widen the sidewalks, but taking car lanes on streets and making them into an area that pedestrians can use these areas to get out and exercise, but at the same time able to socially distance safely. This is currently happening in many cities.

12:44:15          From Abigail Slater: @James RIGHT!

12:44:40          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: As economic stimulus is brought forward, what can be done to ensure environmental regulation and climate-focussed priorities are maintained over the major player demands that the previous system be shored up and expanded?

12:45:27          From Alan McNair: Anti-environment, ant-urban forces are still pushing their agendas to their supportive government levels, like Oil & Gas in Alberta & Saskatchewan, sprawling Land Development proponents in Ontario, to relax and delay regulation of their excesses, using COVID as an excuse. What ideas do we suggest on how to push back effectively against this when the public is tired and scared and overrun by thinking about COVID?

12:46:13          From Dane Grgas to All panelists: Is Conspicuous Consumption going to suffer?

12:47:00          From Robert Godfrey: ^@Alan. Seconded! Similar concerns raised in an earlier event re: vulture capitalists seizing on covid as an opportunity. very worrying

12:47:06          From Kevin Devitt to All panelists: @Stephen in New Haven – FYI, one of the foci of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance is community food networks and distribution. ILSR might have useful resources for you

12:47:23          From Margaret Prophet: @Alan – agree. Would love to hear the response to that.

12:47:40          From Jennifer Lotz to All panelists: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41893-019-0250-1

Sustainability and resilience for transformation in the urban century – Elmqvist et al. (2019) – paper that discusses the relationship and differences between resilience, sustainability, and transformation.

12:47:46          From Sarah Davies: We also have the issue in the states that while NYC might be onboard with change, rural New York is a different story. Same with California cities versus the rural, and very red, parts of the state that want nothing to do with things like UBI, even in light of the current situation.

12:47:47          From Aleksandra Taskovic: @Alan – same!!

12:47:55          From Dustin Carey: Great question Alan

12:47:55          From Lisa Moffatt: As a Newfoundlander, who watched communities retrain during the cod moratorium (retrained to work in oil…!), this is another opportunity to shift and retrain.

12:48:10          From Jennifer Lotz: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41893-019-0250-1

Sustainability and resilience for transformation in the urban century – Elmqvist et al. (2019) – paper that discusses the relationship and differences between resilience, sustainability, and transformation.

12:48:46          From Karmen Whitbread to All panelists: Regarding the collapse of the oil and gas industry, how can we steer oil and gas bail out money (assuming its coming) to developing green energy instead?

12:50:25          From Stewart Sarkozy-Banoczy to All panelists: I like the way Allison made the pivot to resilience and the subtleties for types of communities, big cities, rural, tribal, etc. It has to be holistic resilience per context, so it is equitable.

12:50:40          From Stewart Sarkozy-Banoczy: I like the way Allison made the pivot to resilience and the subtleties for types of communities, big cities, rural, tribal, etc. It has to be holistic resilience per context, so it is equitable.

12:50:59          From John Jung: Car culture seems to be regaining strength – seeing it as their private health bubbles. Flight also back to suburbs. Do we need better education and communication strategies to avoid this?

12:51:18          From James Glave: re: @Alan comment. These entrenched sunset industries are playing to emotion of fear, we can’t afford this. Many urbanists rely too heavily on “facts” and “evidence.” Especially in times of crisis, emotion is far more powerful motivator than evidence.

12:51:27          From Olusola Olufemi: Resilience versus sustainability? Any thoughts by panelists as it relates to COVID-19 and Climate change?

12:52:32          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: Ian Hussey Parkland Institute in Calgary is researching just transition in Alberta oil sector

12:52:50          From Christina Schwantes: For us who work in climate, we see many opps for mainstreaming resilience during COVID. But how can muni’s now pull together resilience measures and apply them more widely, and mobilize these opportunities while considering messaging/framing for decision makers, councillors, constituents, etc. ? How to communicate Multisolving?

12:53:15          From Milton Friesen: Thanks Jennifer Lotz for Elmqvist paper reference.

12:53:34          From Jeff Frank: “In the rush to return to normal, use this time to consider which parts of normal are worth rushing back to”

12:53:46          From Amy Norris: YES! Would like to hear thoughts on how to leverage this new public understanding and support for alternatives to the status quo?

12:54:39          From Erica Lay to All panelists: And how can we build on people

12:55:23          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: Is international capital continuing to invest in Toronto Real Estate Market at the same level or is it increasing as safe harbours sought during the global economic collapse?

12:55:41          From Scott Vokey to All panelists: One individual level positive–sales of garden equipment is up. People are creating the new ‘victory gardens’ in significant numbers.

12:56:10          From Mark Roseland: My article “Rethinking the Sustainable City in a World of Social Distancing” may be of interest: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41893-019-0250-1

12:56:15          From Kevin Devitt to All panelists: WRT northern and remote communities: “access” of course also includes to potable water, non-diesel reliable energy services, and affordable, fresh and healthy food, etc. The Pembina Institute has a new indigenous off-diesel program, FYI

12:56:28          From Erica Lay to All panelists: How can we build on people’s willingness and understanding of having to take individual action to “flatten the curve” and translate that into that concept of personal resilience/and feeling as if individual action can contribute to the bigger whole?

12:56:41          From Loretta Gette to All panelists: I agree, COVID can serve as a catalyst for individuals, communities and countries to reflect on the way they think of wellbeing and quality of life.

12:57:16          From Laurel Phillips: Edmonton and other cities have implemented free transit during the COVID-19 outbreak to protect the drivers. I’d love to see this continue long term but the infrastructure isn’t there to encourage people to give up their cars, even if it was free. Until our cities are willing to truly invest in public transit, people won’t change their behaviour. Cost isn’t the main reason people aren’t using it.

12:57:50          From Milton Friesen: Laurian good point. A team in the US I work with on modeling talk about them as decision support tools, not human substitutes.

12:58:47          From Amy Calder: how do you recommend changing how people view and criticize data and information Laurian? It’s such a difficult question… and definitely is underpinning the “fake news” and culture of distrust epidemic as well

12:59:06          From Scott Vokey: Dutch Cycling Embassy great resource. Show how to move from car centered to cycling centered cities: https://www.dutchcycling.nl/en/

12:59:11          From derek chadbourne: We should be moving away from personal automobile use

12:59:20          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: Green Infrastructure shovel ready project: Black Creek between Weston Road and Jane Street is Toronto’s highest flood risk area. Stop studying and fix it.

12:59:40          From Donna Dupont to All panelists: I like the concept of a home resilience approach. How can we adapt our current power structures, build relationships and trust to empower local communities and citizens to be resilient?

12:59:41          From Meghan Hollett: Agreed, Derek re. less personal vehicles

12:59:53          From Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Please help CUI improve its CityTalk programming with a short post-webinar survey – https://bit.ly/34RSP49

12:59:56          From derek chadbourne: It doesn’t matter if its gas or electric, cars still take up urban space, endanger pedestrians and cyclist

13:00:17          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: Use area based Neighbourhood revitalization area based approach.

13:00:26          From Frank Miele to All panelists: Well done Mary. Your panel is excellent. I enjoy listening to your webinars. All the best.

13:01:10          From Rick Ciccarelli to All panelists: Shovel ready projects need workforce training attached via community benefits agreements

13:01:11          From Lisa Mactaggart: I am disappointed that the time is running short. I hope this type of conversation can continue.

13:01:19          From paula gallo to All panelists: thanks!

13:01:22          From Lisa Moffatt: Thank you to all panelists and Mary for moderating a great discussion. Greatly appreciate it.

13:01:24          From James Glave: The insular protected bubble of the private vehicle is seductive. To wit, the Tesla has a “Bioweapon Defence Mode”

13:01:25          From Kyle Aben to All panelists: Thanks for this! Outstanding.

13:01:27          From Robert Godfrey: Thank you to all panelists and attendees

13:01:33          From Dustin Carey: Thanks everyone!

13:01:37          From Laurel Davies Snyder: Agreed. This was a great discussion and a follow-up forum would be excellent.

13:01:44          From Stewart Sarkozy-Banoczy: Great job to all of the panelists and moderator!

13:01:45          From Sam Horton: Thank you for archiving the chat – very insightful discussion. Thank you to all panelists.

13:01:46          From Michelle Farrell: Thank you all for a fascinating discussion. Great ideas!

13:01:47          From Allan Kean: Thanks everyone. Great discussion!

13:01:48          From Ryan Walker: Excellent webinar and panelists with tonnes of new ideas and examples. Thanks again.

13:01:49          From Lisa MacTavish: Really great conversation, thank you very much.

13:01:53          From Chantal Whitaker to All panelists: thank you for organizing the session

13:01:55          From Margaret Prophet: would love to have a continuation of this convo pls.

13:01:55          From Sarah Davies: I love these conversations. Thank you!

13:01:55          From salima rawji: thanks!!!!

13:01:57          From Emily Wall, CUI Staff: Please help CUI improve its CityTalk programming with a short post-webinar survey – https://bit.ly/34RSP49

13:01:57          From Savannah Sarosiak-Larter: Thank you!

13:01:59          From Meghan Hollett: Where does the chat land, after this live video? is this archived for folks too?

13:02:01          From Loretta Gette: Great discussion, thank you!

13:02:02          From Nahid A. to All panelists: Thank you

13:02:02          From Mikel Calleja: Thanks!

13:02:03          From Andre Forsythe to All panelists: amazing convo!! thank you dearly!

13:02:03          From Niki Van Vugt: Thank you very much! Incredible discussion!

13:02:03          From Amy Calder: for sure, great conversation covering a lot of big topics. I’ve love to see a practical discussion with city builders and anthropologists too!

13:02:03          From Laurel Phillips: Thank you! This was great

13:02:05          From Joanne Léveillée: Thank you

13:02:08          From Lindsay Vanstone to All panelists: great conversation!

13:02:11          From Dylan Thiessen: Thanks all for your time and knowledge!

13:02:13          From Stephen Cremin-Endes: Thank you

13:02:18          From Aleksandra Taskovic: great discussion thank you all!

13:02:25          From Erica Lay: Great discussion! Thank you!

13:02:29          From Sue Hallatt, CUI Staff: The chat will be posted at canurb.org/citytalk

13:02:33          From Sharon Shuya: Great insights. Thank you!

13:02:34          From Alexandra Turnbull to All panelists: Thank you!

13:02:46          From Lisa Moffatt: Love the idea of a conversation with anthropologists, thank you for putting that out there Laurian.

13:03:24          From Meghan Hollett: Thank you Sue!

13:04:13          From Ross Cotton: Thank you for this

13:04:28          From Marilen Miguel to All panelists: Thank you another great discussion.

13:04:51          From Colleen Bawn to All panelists: Thank you for taking this time – ideas shared increase in value!

13:05:35          From Canadian Urban Institute: If anyone wants to make additional comments please do so now. We will close the chat in two minutes.

13:06:17          From Lisa MacTavish: It would be great to see a continuation of this discussion in a couple of weeks or a month as things continue to progress.

13:06:56          From Meghan Hollett: I second (or third, etc) the idea of a convo with anthropologists, could be a great new City Talk